Jared Wickerham - Getty Images
10 months ago: PITTSBURGH - AUGUST 01: Derrek Lee #25 of the Pittsburgh Pirates, newly acquired in a trade from the Baltimore Orioles, is congratulated by teammate Ryan Ludwick #36, also just acquired in a trade from the San Diego Padres, after Lee hit a solo home run against the Chicago Cubs in the fourth inning during the game on August 1, 2011 at PNC Park in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. (Photo by Jared Wickerham/Getty Images)
El Duce found this in the comment thread to the fanshot about Jeff Passan's latest piece about the Pirates, but it's worth highlighting here. Passan on January 13:
Gone, too, are Ryan Ludwick and Derrek Lee, the remnants of last season’s ill-advised go-for-it push in July. The Pirates sensed the NL Central was winnable when they were 53-47 and tied for first place July 25. They finished 24 games behind Milwaukee.
The Pirates have dipped to third place, 4½ games behind Milwaukee and just two above .500, but they’re close enough that trades for outfielder Ryan Ludwick and first baseman Derrek Lee came across as reasonable. It’s been 18 years since anybody called them this, so why not: The Pirates are winners.
Now, I'm probably more sympathetic than most to obvious, obvious contradictions like these, because I spent much of 2011 writing about 3,000 words a day, and it's really hard to be completely consistent when you're writing that much. I certainly don't want to throw stones here. Also, Passan has, in the past, done some pretty good work, including being among the first to report details of the new CBA.
In this case, though, it just sounds like this guy is stretched way too thin or, more likely, just doesn't care too much if he writes something that completely contradicts what he said six months ago. Because hey, that was six months ago, and why bother actually thinking about stuff, when snark is so easy?
Even leaving aside the fact that Passan's more recent comment is a complete 180, it also makes no sense. Why would the trades for Lee and Ludwick have been ill-advised? The Pirates gave up practically nothing of consequence, and the only real cost of acquiring those players was money. One could certainly make the argument that the Pirates could have traded Joel Hanrahan at the deadline instead of acquiring players, and some of y'all did make that argument. But first, that's a slightly different point, and second, there is absolutely no doubt that doing so would have made the Pirates the trade-deadline loser for Passan and every other what-have-you-done-for-me-lately MSM baseball columnist. I'm sure he also would have reamed them at the time if they had chosen to stand pat at the deadline, given that they were very much in contention after nearly two decades of losing seasons. It would have been easy, easy copy, after all.
This is why commenters on this site love to attack articles like this one, and why Bob Smizik is such a villain here. These people are just writing around pre-established narratives about who the Pirates are, rather than actually engaging with the decisions they have to make. (It's a shame that Passan does this, because he's actually pretty talented; Smizik does it because he simply isn't capable of better.) After all, why bother with consistency when you've got some stupid Twitter hashtags to dream up? #nutrisystempedro LOLOLOL!!!! Pedro Alvarez is totally fat! Wait, he isn't? Oh well -- fat people are funny! Also, the Pirates lose a lot and they're dumb!
Alvarez aside, you can make the case that the Pirates deserve this. After all, they do lose a lot. They'd been running themselves into the ground for over a decade before Neal Huntington came along, and until he or someone else digs them out, this is the kind of treatment they're going to get from many in the national media, as well as the more troglodytic elements of the local media. That's just a fact. But it's a shame that silliness like this has to pollute our conversation. This is the stuff our friends and coworkers are going to be reading.
This year, I'm going to make more of an effort to highlight articles from the mainstream media -- from whatever perspective, whether praising the Pirates, or criticizing them, or something in between -- that get things right. Not just by linking to their authors, but by going out of my way to point out that they took the high road when the low road would have been so, so easy.
7 recs | 158 comments
Great Post, Charlie.
ATribeCalledGreg - January 15, 2012
Excellently said.
Suffering Buc - January 15, 2012
Makes me wonder
Makes me wonder if the comments about Lee not wanting to return are also incorrectly inferred.
I have yet to see a Lee quote saying something bad about the Bucs
I think Neal is just waiting out the market for big purchases this year.
E Jackson, D Lee, and Morales (for Meek) will all be wearing black n gold this spring
bmcferren - January 15, 2012
"I have yet to see a Lee quote saying something bad about the Bucs"
DLee is not so dumb as to make a public comment of this type, particularly at this stage of his career
cocktailsfor2 - January 15, 2012
Here are some of the quotes I have heard from D Lee regarding the Pittsburgh Pirates
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6-hvBERmDg
“Hopefully I can come over here and add a little bit in that department (the team offensively)”
“Should be fun”
“Actually I started noticing it (difference in Pgh baseball) last year”
“I think its a beautiful ballpark – obviously its big out to left center – but I’m not worried about that”
“Yeh – they’re winning”
“I noticed their pitching”
“Its exciting – Fans are getting excited – hopefully we can continue”
bmcferren - January 15, 2012
I’ve never spoken to Lee directly, but everyone I know who has would eat their hat if he ended up returning.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 15, 2012
sounds like
sounds like the interviewers from that youtube clip are trying to feed Derrek the same lines
only reason that I bring all this up is because of the original article.
everyone (not just national media) has a knee jerk reaction of CAN’T with regard to the pirates
more quotes like those above from D lee and from Hurdle will eventually change the culture for the fans, national media, local media, bloggers, etc…and bring winning back to Pirates Baseball
bmcferren - January 15, 2012
I don’t think this is a conspiracy on anyone’s part, though. By just about all accounts, Lee doesn’t want to come back to Pittsburgh.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 15, 2012
.
who do you think plays 1st in pgh on opening day? on Aug 16th?
bmcferren - January 15, 2012
Garrett Jones, if a righty is starting. On August 16, I have no idea.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 15, 2012
That's too bad about Lee
bmcferren - January 15, 2012
Then how do you change the culture of the team
When no one good will ever come here? Sounds like a catch-22 if you ask me.
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
Well, I think that whole...
…“nobody good ever wants to sign with the poor lowly Pirates” thing gets a bit overblown. I mean, sure, if a player has 2 almost-identical offers – one from a contender, and one from the Pirates – he’ll opt to sign with the contender.
But if the Pirates put the best offer on the table, the player will sign, most of the time. And not be real fussy about the team’s recent record.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
well, yes... and no
players, especially the exciting young ones, would prefer to play in a larger market where their skills will be on display more often. it also can lead to more endorsements and possibly more wins due to larger market teams ability to sign more players like themselves
white angus - January 16, 2012
I believe it is Vlad that has a number of links to articles pointing out players that have in fact turned down the best offer on the table in order to not play in Pittsburgh. And it isn’t just a list of all stars. We are talking about mediocre free agents not wanting to play here.
PensFan024 - January 16, 2012
Who, besides...
Chad Durbin, and DLR? Because they’re the only 2 I can think of, that might have turned down a sightly better Pirates offer.
And in Durbin’s case, he wanted to at least have a chance to earn a rotaion spot, in ST. Something NH wasn’t willing to offer him, in 2008.
And in DLR’s case, he wanted to stay a Rockie. And once the Rockies threw an offer out there, DLR grabbed it.
If you have other examples, though, please share.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
Oh, there's more.
As 024 notes above, Vlad is the go-to on this….
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
Well, then, Vlad
is cordially invited to share.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
Here’s. an old post by Vlad with a couple — Daniel Cabrera, Rocco Baldelli, and, uh, Bill Mueller?
WHYG Zane Smith - January 16, 2012
Also Paul Bako, Luis Vizcaino, and Will Ohman.
Vlad - January 16, 2012
What a great thread you linked me to.
i just got back, after spending 2 hours reading that classic. Well worth my time.
Anyhoo, as to your examples:
“Cabrera, formerly of the Baltimore Orioles, chose Washington because he wanted to remain in the Beltway area.”
“(Mueller, who picked the Dodgers) had played a long stretch in California and immediately went into coaching and the front office with the Dodgers when he was injured shortly after signing, so he obviously had some connections there.”
“Part of Baldelli’s motivation for wanting to stay in the American League, according to one source, was that, if his health dictated, he could be a designated hitter and maintain his strength better. One reason he liked Boston was that he is a native of nearby Cumberland, R.I”
So, sure, there are players who going to have extenuating circumstances, that will help to dictate where they’ll sign a FA contract, over and above the money involved. Playing close to home is big, for some players. You’ll notice in my original reply to B.J. McE, I said most of the time, players will sign the best offer. There will, of course, be exceptions.
I think it’s worth pointing out that all teams have players that they’ve persued, who wound up signing elsewhere, for one reason or another. And those teams don’t need to “change their culture”, any more than the Pirates do. Or any more than the Pirates already have.
I stand by my opinion that this whole “nobody good wants to sign with the lowly Pirates” notion is overblown. And that most of the time, making a player the best offer will get his name on a contract.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
thats how we probably got Overbay
i used to think the same thing, Moose. and with some players, like Fielder, its probably true.
but the pirates are never going to be a ballclub with a top 10 salary payout. even when they win, they will middle of the pack or lower. the team will never be worth enough to validate being the top bidder on elite talent.
white angus - January 16, 2012
I agree completely.
But what does that have to do with the topic of conversation at hand? Which is whether or not most FAs will sign with the Pirates, as long as the Pirates put the best contract offer on the table.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
Before this most recent offseason, how many players who signed with the Pirates as free agents had any other firm offers on the table?
Vlad - January 17, 2012
I see pretty much the same pattern with this FO that I did with DL, except it’s more sophisticated. DL absolutely would not pursue any FA that any other team was interested in. This FO is pretty much the same way, although it seems to have learned variations. They got Barmes and Barajas by aggressively offering starting jobs and, in Barmes’ case, offering two years and putting a time limit on the offer. They probably did something similar with Bedard.
The bottom line is that this FO won’t try to win a bidding war. Look what happened with Sano—they tried to get in with his family and then tried to get a bargain price while no other teams (at the agent’s insistence) were making offers. With Heredia, Gayo successfully managed to shut out other teams. (I’m not criticizing that approach.) With somebody like Cespedes, as soon as it appears other teams are hot after him, the Pirates back off. With the draft, of course, there are no other bidders. I suspect that’s why it’s the one area they’re willing to be unequivocally aggressive.
I’m not saying there aren’t reasons for this approach, and I’m not saying they should be bidding on Fielder, but at some point they have to be willing to compete for talent in appropriate areas.
WTM - January 17, 2012
I think that you’re taking those denials too much at face value. Players aren’t going to come out and say, “I didn’t want to play for a shitty team like the Pirates.” After all, we might be their only offer on the board somewhere down the road. So why burn that bridge unnecessarily?
Vlad - January 17, 2012
I can’t remember the last time I saw a player rule out a team openly. I’m sure it’s happened, but it’s REALLY rare. I don’t see what’s so complicated about this point. These guys aren’t morons and their agents sure aren’t. They all know how to recite the cliches.
WTM - January 17, 2012
Both you and Vlad bring up a good point, Wilbur
And one worthy of consideration. I’m not prone to call players liars, although I’ll admit there may have been times that players has been talking to the media with their fingers firmly crossed behind their backs.
Be that as it may, I’m still convinced that some players, did, indeed, have genuine motives, over money, in choosing where they signed. Such as playing close to home, playing in a warm weather enviornment, and/or resigning with their former team.
I’m also convinced that what you and Vlad are describing is not solely a Pirates phenomenon, as I’ve said before. The players will naturally choose a warm-waether contending club to play for, given the option. Over not only the Pirates, but over pretty much any northern team, not projected to contend.
So, i remain resolute that we’re overblowing this whole “poor poor us, nobody good wants to play here” stuff.
Midnight Moose - January 17, 2012
Fair 'nuf
WTM - January 17, 2012
i would guess that there were more than a few that wasnt ever released to the public
for example, NH and DLee says that the pirates tried to sign him before 2011 but Lee decided on the O’s
white angus - January 16, 2012
All the same,
I wonder, if I could sit down with DLee today, over a cup of coffee, that he’d say that he regrets not accepting the Pirates arbitration offer. Because it sure looks like he’s not going to get that multi-year contract, he was wanting.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
"...he’s not going to get that multi-year contract, he was wanting."
Not to put too fine a point on it, but do you know that DLee is looking multi-year?
In speaking with NH, it’s also a very distinct possibility (in his opinion) that DLee may even retire.
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
wasn't there a quote that he said;
" i have made enough money. i have to be pushed to excell. i don’t know if i want to play next year."
i looked but could not find it.
karreemofwheat - January 16, 2012
I'm not in close personal contact with DLee
So, no, I don’t know this with 100% certainty. I’m just inferring that part of the reason for turning down the Pirates arb offer was the hope he could get a multi-year deal somewhere (which is the shared hope of most FAs).
He may, indeed, retire, if he doesn’t get an offer to his liking. Like kareemofwheat is saying, Lee has made the possibity of his retirement known.
Midnight Moose - January 16, 2012
Getting two guys
who can only play first (D-Lee and Morales) seems unlikely to me.
KentuckyPirate - January 15, 2012
I don’t want Derrek Lee. We’ve had enough problems with over-the-hill players, and I don’t trust his late-season hot streak to carry over to 2012. There’s a reason he signed with the lowly Orioles before last season and there’s a reason the Pirates got him cheap. He’s not that good.
bolton - January 16, 2012
Franchise Perception
I would add incorrect reporting, unfair criticism, and skepticism are all by-products of the losing streak. All of these years of losing have simply taken over the narrative about this franchise, especially in this newer media age. It’s much easier to pile on with misinformation rather than give reasonable analysis. For some people, perception becomes the new reality.
Once this franchise can be a contender again, the discussion will begin to include a truer picture of the history and winning tradition.
SteelStealth - January 15, 2012
nah, if we win they will just talk about Cutch’s steadiness, and Hurdle’s leadership and winning mentality and Walker’s RBI’ness.
Mr. E - January 15, 2012
Yep and as a Pens fan I know where your going with thid
I remember during the leans years of 2001-04 when the product was poor (Rico Fata skating on Mellon Arene is an image I want to forget for all eternity) and the attendence was low the team got alot of negative press locally and nationally as the joke of the league and people would make fun of me in school all the time saying the Pirates would win a WS before the Pens would win another cup. Then when we got Sid and the team started to get better, an complete 180 occured with the team and people began nationally and locally talking about the Pens in a positive manner and so on and so forth.
That’s just how it is, when you lose for a long period of time, the fans and media focuses on nothing but the negative because that’s all there is.
Bradley James McEachern - January 15, 2012
exactly even in 08
in high school my one class room consisted of about 25 people, My senior year during the one class it was when the Isle of Capri didn’t get the casino licensed bid, and the threat of the Pens leaving to Las Vegas of K.C was starting to look realistic. So my teacher asked the class for those who cared if the Penguins left Pittsburgh to raise their hands. There was 3 of us out of about 25 or so that did… Now everyone is a Pens fan and they can do no wrong. Kinda ruined watching the Pens for me because of all the band wagoners.
BigB2323 - January 16, 2012
Yeah,
totally sucks when the team starts winning and people start showing up for games. I would hate to have my favorite team vastly increase revenues and popularity. Stupid band-wagoners. They should only allow people who played hockey to even go into the Consol Energy center. That, or they should publicly recognize people for being fans during the crappy times, so we can show everyone how hardcore we are.
Wizard of Woz - January 16, 2012
Exactly!
Maybe some sort of commemorative wall with our names inscribed inside the CEC. All the bandwagoners could be required to kneel before it in deference. And it will only be better when the Bucs eventually win again. Thank goodness I was born in the vicinity of Pittsburgh roughly 30 years ago, so I am neither a glory days geezer or recent championship bandwagon chump.
King Oskar - January 16, 2012 via Android app
I'm going to change my screen name
to “GloryDaysGeezer”.
Unless bucdaddy takes it first.
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
I'm going to change my screen name
to “Curmudgeon”
Unless Thunder or WTM takes it first.
(Get off my lawn!) ; )
MDBuc - January 16, 2012
I was going to use curmudgeon
but crusty was easier to spell
crusty - January 16, 2012
My wife frequently calls me "cur"
which works on at least two levels.
MDBuc - January 16, 2012
Help yourself.
bucdaddy - January 16, 2012
I get what you saying and you are right
But don’t you ever get pissed at people and only start to follow the team only when there good and when one bad moment comes along they drop the team like a hot potato?
I have no problem with a team getting increased popularity because the team got good, believe me I hated when the team wasn’t doing too good and 9,000 people were showing up at the arena, but I do have a problem when a bad moment comes alone or the team goes through one or two lean years the fans throw the team under the bus. That I can’t stand.
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
I really try not to let other people rain on my parade
I don’t root for the Pirates because of anyone else, and I am happy for anyone who would also like to root for them. What drives me crazy is people complaining about more people liking their favorite team. It looks like eliteism to me. “You can’t call yourself a fan unless you’ve been rooting for X years”. I say, “Come one and come all”.
I think that often people who are restrictive with fanship have so much wrapped up in thier team emotionally and since the team doesn’t actually give something back, they imagine that the team has some loyalty to them. Since they have “earned” this loyalty, it angers them that the team could also be equally as loyal to someone who just became a fan. Especially when the new fans are richer or younger then they are.
Wizard of Woz - January 17, 2012
I still prefer MY method:
.
cocktailsfor2 - January 15, 2012
E vill rue de day e vass bern a Fraggenstein.
“Whaaat?”
bucdaddy - January 15, 2012
Cocktails
for prez!
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 17, 2012
in before.....
WTM and Thunder whole-heartedly agree with Passan’s recent Smizik-like view on the Pirates.
BadAndy - January 15, 2012 via mobile
This.
Bradley James McEachern - January 15, 2012
Wow,
that was unnecessary.
Both of those guys have pretty well though out opinions, and they make sense, unlike the garbage above (Passan, not CW).
Wizard of Woz - January 16, 2012
Exactly
There’s a difference between being pessimistic because you’ve done the research, and being pessimistic because it’s an easy laugh for a lazy writer.
Vlad - January 16, 2012 via mobile
Psshhh
that’s just a distinction. I would know, I’m trying (trying be the keyword) to become a lawyer.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 17, 2012
I know you are hurting for news at this point in the calendar year
But giving this clown front page time completely defeats the purpose. It provides more clicks, makes him more popular, and makes him more money.
Very disappointing.
Kosstic518 - January 15, 2012
Start your own blog.
JFC
cocktailsfor2 - January 15, 2012
just dont promote it here
right mccutchenisthetruth?
white angus - January 16, 2012
Uhhhhhh
Ya I have the marketing thing cornered!!! :(
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 17, 2012
I think that’s a really myopic way of looking at it. If someone is writing badly, or irresponsibly, or incoherently, it helps to have someone say so. Yeah, if you’re smart, you might be able to figure that out on your own. But if you’re an intelligent person and you’re relatively new to baseball or new to the team, you’re probably going to see through things a little more clearly if you have some help.
When I was in college, for example, most criticism of popular music reflected an extremely narrow point of view. But I wasn’t really aware of that until I started reading a message board called I Love Music that made that clear. That web board in particular played a very clear role in improving a lot of the discourse around popular music, at least for a time. The idea that the few hundred or thousand or so hits Passan got as a result of my posting a link is not the endgame here, and the idea that he, in practice, actually took home more money as a direct result of it is really unlikely.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
I guess it depends on traffic numbers on his site and on your site.
I have no idea what either are, so I can’t really comment on that.
Kosstic518 - January 17, 2012
Passan has done good work?
Perhaps in some straight reporting regards, but I’ve always found his opinion pieces to be awful… maybe he’s gotten better lately, but over the years, not so much…
Captain Easychord - January 15, 2012
Opinion pieces require a different skill set than factual reportage. Look at Dejan, or Ken Rosenthal.
Vlad - January 16, 2012 via mobile
I've often thought the same, Captain.
patthatt - January 15, 2012
Yeah
Passan is sort of OK when he’s not talking about the dregs of the leagues. He’s largely a big market jock sniffer. His snark is tough to take when it’s combined with misinformation, which is pretty common when he bothers to mention the Pirates.
I think you’re letting the media a little too much off the hook. There are national writers who do a good job of objectively covering the Pirates’ pros and cons. Like many, though, Passan ain’t one of them.
Smizik’s problem is he’s old enough to remember 1958-1983 (and probably the pillaging of the Louisville Colonels, for that matter). If it’s not how Joe L. Brown did things, then get off my lawn.
Jitterbug - January 15, 2012
Oh yeah
Smizik probably has a rather large collection of baseballs from neighborhood kids after an errant throw lands on his lawn. I can imagine him laughing maniacally and yelling: “it’s on my lawn and its my ball now kid!”
Pagliaroni - January 15, 2012
I bet Smizik's drinking buddies back in the day were Honus Wagner, Dots Miller and Fred Clarke
And played pool with Barney Dreyfuss.
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
pretty sure he drinks alone, all by himself.
karreemofwheat - January 17, 2012
And when he drinks alone...
….he don’t need nobody else.
Midnight Moose - January 17, 2012
You don't think Ron Cook or John Steigerwald stops by once in awhile? lol
Bradley James McEachern - January 18, 2012
The Bucs
Most people think the Pirates are still the worst team in the NL and the worst team in baseball, so that is their point of reference. That is what happens when you are bad for as long as they have been, but when I read this stuff, particularly from a non-Pittsburgh author, I just consider the source. Let’s face it – if the Pirates make the same move as say the Atlanta Braves, the Atlanta move is a stroke of genius and the Pirate move is stupid.
As for Smizik, he is just old, angry and hates the Bucs front office because they pay no attention to him. He has those 5 or 10 loyal posters who rail on irrationally for hours after they hear the word Pirates.
Batavia - January 15, 2012
Good
stuff. Plus, as most everyone here knows, we should get a draft pick out of Aaron Baker, so I’ll take it.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 15, 2012
Passan's style
I think of Passan like the poor man’s Ken Rosenthal: great at reporting and breaking news, but not so great otherwise. You’re right, Charlie: Passan had some good stuff regarding the CBA. In the same context, Robo is often the first guy to break player movement. Both of them, however, are not so good when throwing out opinions or analysis. I would assume it’s that they spend all their time working sources for actual news to report that when they’re asked for analysis, they’re underprepared and parrot other views.
SuperBaes - January 15, 2012
I got the impression
that Passan heaved a long sigh when he sat down to write this one. “OK the Pirates…. h’mmm…. let’s see. I don’t want to expend a lot of thought and energy on this one… h’mmm, themes… yes, focus on themes…. losing streak, hopelessness, cheapness, incompetance…”
Just plain laziness on Passan’s part. All he had to do was scan his past few columns on the Pirates to ensure that his comments are consistent. After all there aren’t that many right?
Credibility is one of the most important aspects of journalism. When a guy does something like this his credibility goes out the window. Maybe when the Pirates get better we won’t see so much half-assed reporting on them.
Pagliaroni - January 15, 2012
We care what other people write
why?
bucdaddy - January 15, 2012
Apparently Charlie cares
So it has to be something worth talking about.
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
Why do you care what Charlie writes?
Mr. E - January 16, 2012
Well-played.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 16, 2012
Touche
As for a serious answer: Because I know how well-informed Charlie is, that he makes it his business to be informed, and I know his focus is on one team, the team I care about.
I know guys like Passan have to try to pass themselves off as experts on everybody (who does he write for, again?) and I know that’s a near impossible task. You end up knowing a lot about a few teams (usually the good ones) and little or nothing about most teams (usually the mediocre and bad ones).
So why would I listen to somebody ill-informed (other than to laugh or roil at the ignorance) when I can listen to one well-informed guy, with a well-informed base of commenters?
bucdaddy - January 16, 2012
Between Charlie and Tim at P2
we have an awesome reservoir of information, well thought opinion and comments. I couldn’t ask for much more.
Wizard of Woz - January 16, 2012
It’s good for discussion, because as Charlie points out, thousands of casual fans will read the column and just let his garbage seep into their minds that the Pirates are fat and sloppy and terrible.
Passan writes for Yahoo but I believe he covers the entire sporting world, so he’s no expert on Baseball or the Pirates but who knows, maybe this link will find it’s way back to him and he might do a better job next time.
Mr. E - January 16, 2012
Winnar!
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 17, 2012
There are degrees of caring
and for me at least this probably ranks below paper or plastic at the checkout line. This is more along the lines of taking note of what he said.
As far as Charlie’s comment about this being what our friends and co-workers will read and use to form their opinions, he is probably correct. However I rarely engage in discussions about the Pirates with anyone outside of people on this board and Pags Jr. It’s just not worth the grief and aggravation.
Pagliaroni - January 16, 2012
So apparently Jeff Passan doesn't even bother reading Jeff Passan columns
And neither do I.
maguro - January 15, 2012
Honestly
If no one ever brought up his name on here, I wouldn’t even knew he existed.
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
reminds me of a classic Calvin & Hobbes strip, Maguro
Calvin’s mom: Calvin! What did I just say?
Calvin: Beats me, weren’t you listening either?
Garrett122 - January 16, 2012
And Now For Something Completely Different
Pags is off of work today because of the MLK Holiday and “The Sandlot” is on AMC. Score! I was on my way out the door to take down the Christmas lights when I noticed it was on. They’ll probably stay up now until pitchers and catchers report.
Pagliaroni - January 16, 2012
You're killin' me, Smalls.
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
LMAO!
Odd not to hear any F-Bombs from Leary. I can just hear his conversation with the director: “OK so the kid ruins an autographed Babe Ruth ball and I don’t kick his ass – really????”
Pagliaroni - January 16, 2012
SPOILERS:
to be fair, he DID get a ball signed by the whole team so it’d be a bit rough to give him a completely tanned hide.
BlindSquirrel - January 16, 2012
Also off the subject
It one person rec’ing every comment for a reason, or is there just a strangely spread out layer of Rec’s on everything today?
Wizard of Woz - January 16, 2012
i rec'd yours so you wont feel left out, brudder
white angus - January 16, 2012
Don't feel left out
it just seems weird,
Wizard of Woz - January 16, 2012
the same thing happened the other day,
not to brag. i got my first rec’ed.
karreemofwheat - January 16, 2012
Congrats!
Have another. Moving in on green!
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 17, 2012
I think I'm missing the connection between the two posts, Charlie.
The one in July is a trade deadline ranking…and he ranks them 16th and essentially calls them winners for trying. The one from a few days ago he’s saying the moves ill-advised.
In one he’s admiring their moxie, in the other he’s saying it didn’t work out, noting that they finished 24 games back. What’s the rub? That his opinion changed?
Justin Bopp - January 16, 2012
there's a difference between ill-advised and unsuccessful
Nothing wrong with pointing out that the push didn’t work. But it’s definitely a flip-flop when he praised it at the time and now calls it “ill-advised.”
And if in the interim he’s decided he was wrong, he ought to dial back the smug condescension a bit. “In retrospect ill-advised” would be a big improvement, you know?
WHYG Zane Smith - January 16, 2012
I guess I don't see smug condescension, nor snark.
I could be wrong, I just think Charlie’s piece here is pretty tough on Passan for something that should probably get a pass, in my opinion.
Justin Bopp - January 16, 2012
"... something that should probably get a pass ..."
Perhaps that’s what Passan should have said to his editor instead of ham-fisting it.
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
In the recent piece he calls Barmes, Barajas, and Bedard "Blah, Blah, and Blah"
If that’s not snark, what counts as snark?
The one quote Charlie highlighted may not look that condescending in isolation, but taken together with the rest of the article it’s pretty overwhelming.
WHYG Zane Smith - January 16, 2012
Oh ok.
Justin Bopp - January 16, 2012
“Unsuccessful” means that it didn’t work.
“Ill-advised” means that it didn’t work, and you were stupid for trying it in the first place.
Vlad - January 16, 2012
Charlie's Response
Charlie, I consider you a good and informed writer, but I don’t get your criticism here.
You took 2 words, “ill-fated” (really one word, since it’s hyphenated) out of an over-4000 word article and spent the rest of your time blasting the writer. Haven’t you ever hit ‘send’ and then re-read your presentation and realized you “overspoke” on some word/sentence? Are you always exact with what you wrote 6 months ago? And, interspersed with your comments, you take small minded potshots at a blog competitor, Bob Smizik!
Take a crap, if you need to get that garbage out of your system. Then, come back and write some of the quality information that you quite frequently produce.
Take out the word(s) “ill-fated” and then critique Passan’s core write-up of the Pirates: do you agree with his “Blah, Blah, and Blah” assessment? Why or why not? Do you disagree with his premise that the Pirates are on their way to 2 decades of losing? Why do you think the Pirates will be better, the Pirates are on their way to being winners? Do you disagree with Passan that by the time Taillon and Cole get here, McCutch and Walker may be gone?
You just have too much to offer to focus as many words as you did on dissing another writer——or two with Smizik, or three by allowing another commenter to diss Kovacavic!
I come here to have you share your insight on the Pirates, even when I disagree, not to hear you waste time trash-talking others writers. WRITERS, for goodness sake!
Unless you are extraordinarily excited about the Casey McGehee acquisition, it does not look to me that the 2012 Pirates are even as good as last year’s edition. Don’t you think Jeff Karstens will return to “mean”? Let’s spend more time talking about that!
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 16, 2012
"And, interspersed with your comments, you take small minded potshots at a blog competitor, Bob Smizik!"
Surely you’re not defending Bobbo?
Talk about “small minded.”
That referred to Smizik, not you, just to be clear.
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
Meant in reply to G2M2S above.
Reply fail.
cocktailsfor2 - January 16, 2012
i think he is bobbo
karreemofwheat - January 17, 2012
smizik said the exact same thing to mark in dallas when he wrote his letter to the PG
where is mark? i miss reading your writing.
karreemofwheat - January 17, 2012
groat also mentions dissing DK
i looked [twice] in both posts, no mention of dejan.
karreemofwheat - January 17, 2012
From Vlad above
Opinion pieces require a different skill set than factual reportage. Look at Dejan, or Ken Rosenthal.
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 18, 2012
smizik you mentioned dissing dejan above,
perhaps you would like to point out the offending comment. i looked and could not find it.
karreemofwheat - January 18, 2012
I don't think that's really a "dis".
When Dejan was a beat guy, he was just about the best beat guy in the country. He’s not a terrible columnist, but (IMO) he’s not up to his prior standard. Which is perfectly normal – even good writers are better at some types of writing than others.
I also think that he tends to think things through less thoroughly on opinion pieces than he did on straight reportage. Which may just be part of the nature of the medium.
Vlad - January 18, 2012
Don’t know what I was think “allowing” that comment to stand.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 18, 2012
I find it interesting...
that there are people here that seem to get continually bent out of shape by what certain writers (Smizik, Passan, Perrotto, etc) write about.
If you have a problem with what they write, why read them?
Thunder - January 16, 2012
I’d agree with that. Waste of time trying to point out their inconsistencies – as we all have them, but Thunder makes the better point.
CO_Bucs - January 16, 2012
This.
I can’t stand Smizik and the minions that post on his blog. To him constantly hating the Pens and his strawman attitude about the Pirates. You know what I did about it? I stopped reading his shit about a year ago and I feel i’m a better person for doing so. I really do.
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
I felt that way about Mark Madden
Don’t miss him and feel like my life’s better without him.
SuperBaes - January 17, 2012
Actually I take that back after thinking about it
Smizik’s views about the Pirates may not be strawman but an invincible ignorance fallacy.
You be the judge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_fallacy
Bradley James McEachern - January 16, 2012
You can’t know what Smizik wrote until you read it. And if you’re an optimist, there’s always that little part of you that thinks that just maybe, this time will be the time he wrote something worth reading. It does happen once in a while.
Vlad - January 17, 2012
Not a big deal
What’s worse is listening to anything Jay Bilas has to say.
CO_Bucs - January 16, 2012
Jay Bilas drinking games are fun
Everyone picks a Bilas buzzword and drinks everytime he says it. If he strings any 3 buzzwords together (“supreme 2nd-jumpability ceiling”), everyone drinks. If one of the other commentators laughs or pokes fun at a Bilasism, whoever has it drinks twice. Also drinks to be doled out on a case-by-case basis for great comments on attire/appearance (Jan Vesely looks like a cro-magnon Jonas brother). Everyone wins!!
SuperBaes - January 17, 2012
He knows way more about what he’s talking about than Passan
Mr. E - January 17, 2012
A mute button is a good invention
Thunder - January 17, 2012
Have you noticed
how some people ENJOY getting their shorts in a bunch for some reason? You wouldn’t think so, you’d think people would much rather enjoy calmer pursuits and pastimes, but there sure are a lot of people who seem to read writers and listen to broadcasters they know are going to set them off. Maybe it’s their substitute for caffeine or something …
bucdaddy - January 17, 2012
Peculiar
Perhaps it’s just me, but I find it peculiar that so many supposed Pirate fans get upset when someone writes an article that questions the Pirate front office.
How can you be surprised?
They do minimal work in keeping this franchise afloat, and appear to only care about slicing the dollar bill up to the proportions that keep them profitable.
Profits are fine, but there comes a time when you have to give the paying public a decent product.
For God sake, this has been going on for almost two decades.
HonzaBednarik - January 17, 2012
It's not so much questioning the front office
As those that question the process that annoy me even more. People who say we shouldn’t have traded Bay/McLouth for prospects (to be clear, I’m talking mostly about the kind of people who didn’t realize Bay would be a type A/B free agent and get us draft picks when signed, the people who hate trading for prospects on principle). People who say the key to the Pirates winning is to sign the Carl Crawfords, Jose Reyes, Prince Fielders of the world and that we can’t win unless we do so. The Pirates front office clearly has the “correct” strategy, their implementation of it is easily questionable, and intelligent people do question THAT, but I can’t think of many intelligent people who think that the process the Pirates are following is wrong.
Justin Mos - January 17, 2012
The Pirates front office clearly has the "correct" strategy, their implementation of it is easily questionable, and intelligent people do question THAT, but I can’t think of many intelligent people who think that the process the Pirates are following is wrong.
How can this strategy be “correct” when it hasn’t worked one single year for this ownership?
Ogden Nutting entered the picture in 1996, and the Pirates haven’t had (at least) a .500 season yet!
HonzaBednarik - January 17, 2012
Ogden Nutting had no obvious impact on the Pirates’ strategy back then, and the strategy has clearly changed a ton since 2007.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
Whaddya mean? Nutting owned two percent of the team! Obviously he was running everything!
WTM - January 17, 2012
Ogden Nutting
With all due respect, I don’t think anyone knows what kind of impact Ogden Nutting had in 96, 98, etc.
Unless you had some huge connection to ownership, there is no way to tell.
As for 2007, that’s five years ago.
That’s plenty of time to finish over 500.
It’s a bad situation anyway that you cut it.
HonzaBednarik - January 18, 2012
"With all due respect, I don’t think anyone knows what kind of impact Ogden Nutting had in 96, 98, etc."
So, if nobody knows, how can you assign blame going back that far?
You can’t.
cocktailsfor2 - January 18, 2012
Not only that, but Kevin McClatchy was the public face of the Pirates ownership then. A few years ago, he was pushed out of the picture, and Bob Nutting became the guy in charge, and the strategy completely changed. I guess we can’t know that the Nutting family wasn’t pulling the strings the whole time and making McClatchy look like an idiot on purpose, but what’s more likely, that or the possibility that the Nuttings just weren’t exercising a lot of power before 2007?
Charlie Wilmoth - January 19, 2012
Why?
Because it drives you Smiziots crazy.
That’s fun.
cocktailsfor2 - January 17, 2012
I think Charlie addressed this in the last three paragraphs
Yes, the Pirates FO deserves criticism. But let it be well-informed criticism, not lazy reflexive snark. WTM, for one, has been extremely critical of the Pirates’ offseason, but he’s (to use Charlie’s phrase) engaging with the decisions they’re making rather than repeating pre-established narratives.
WHYG Zane Smith - January 17, 2012
Right. Anyone who thinks this is about my having a problem with people criticizing the Pirates’ front office is being oblivious. I don’t have a problem with criticism of the Pirates’ front office. I have a problem with someone completely failing to notice a glaring contradiction in his work, probably because he’d rather spend his time making misleading and mean-spirited jokes about how Pedro Alvarez is fat, or whatever.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
Charlie = the Jon Stewart of Pirate baseball
WTM - January 17, 2012
Pedro is Fat Until Proven Otherwise
Take the word “ill-fated” out of the article . . . and THEN comment on his contradictions.
Last time Pedro was seen in Spring Training, he was out of shape. Last season, when Pedro underperformed by a serious degree, the Front Office said that he was not in the best of baseball shape.
He is still “fat and out of shape” until he shows up in Winter Ball . . . oops, no Winter Ball . . . until he shows up in Spring Training and proves otherwise.
Still sounds like you are picking at lint and failing to notice the suit. What is it about Passan’s content that you so abhor?
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 17, 2012
Last time Pedro was seen in Spring Training, he was out of shape.
That’s just not true.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
It can be, if you didn't actually see him.
WTM - January 17, 2012
Right. I was just a few feet away from him at Spring Training, and I assume you were too. I mean, the fact that people still thinks this kind of partially answers the questions about why it’s good to respond to stuff like what Passan wrote.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
I Was There
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. i was there too, and he looked awful thick in the legs and not very quick. I liked his hands and loved his arm, but 10 pounds would have seemed to add to his quickness.
Front Office comments early last season would seem to agree with me.
I stood 12 feet away from him during infield drills.
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 17, 2012
I was there and was surprised at what good shape he was in. He looked totally different from the previous year. Yeah, he’s thick. He always will be. That doesn’t make him fat. And I don’t recall the FO criticizing his conditioning last year like they did after he signed.
This stuff about him being “lazy” is horseshit, too. He’s gone through intensive conditioning programs the last two years.
This line of criticism originated with the guy who writes for piratereport.com, who’s a well known idiot. All the other media members covering the team last spring contradicted his baseless reports, as has everybody I know who was there except you. But the meme just won’t die, because many fans insist on attributing moral failures to players who play poorly, and writers like Passan can’t resist playing to this attitude because it’s cheap and easy.
WTM - January 17, 2012
Also, only ugly people can ever be evil.
Vlad - January 17, 2012
Your right, pirate report is a POS site
It’s a fluff site that gives no real insight to the team like this site and pirates prospects does.
Oh and there this:
http://psamp.com/2010-articles/may/paul-ladewski-is-a-hack.html
Bradley James McEachern - January 18, 2012
The inherent unfairness in saying that something was a good idea, and then turning around six months later and criticizing the move, without acknowledging that previous support.
Vlad - January 17, 2012
bingo
karreemofwheat - January 17, 2012
4000 Words
He writes a 4000 word article and you castigate the whole production on ONE WORD: “Ill-fated”!
Nothing else he says bears contemplation or consideration because of ONE WORD.
I aspire to your perfection.
There seems so much more to talk about concerning the Pirates, which is what Passan’s article was about, than if he made a one word mistake.
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 17, 2012
Ugh. It’s not “ill-fated,” it’s “ill-advised,” which means something totally different. The article is rooted in snark, which means that it had better be coherent, and it isn’t. I do agree that not everything he had to say was worthless, but if you’re going to let fly with a bunch of sarcasm and stupid Twitter hashtags, you’d better be right, or at least make the effort to be. And the “Pedro is fat” meme is just a canard.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
(Also, that article was nowhere near 4,000 words.)
Charlie Wilmoth - January 17, 2012
Discounting the title, hatnote, and subheads, it’s only 1,042.*
*According to MS Word.
Vlad - January 17, 2012
For reference:
Passan’s direct quote:
Vlad - January 17, 2012
Geez, you triple the length of the post, and ignore all the snark
the Pedro is fat, complete with hash tags, and can’t even quote it properly.
That’s some skill Dick2bill
Justin Mos - January 17, 2012
Im convinced this is Passan.
Kosstic518 - January 17, 2012 via mobile
I think it's Bobbo himself.
cocktailsfor2 - January 18, 2012
yep see above
karreemofwheat - January 18, 2012
It’s not the fact that they’re being criticized, but the nature of that criticism. I criticize the front office all the time – but I try to do so fairly and honestly, from a consistent set of positions, and it bothers me when other people don’t play by the same rules.
Vlad - January 17, 2012
"...Passan and every other what-have-you-done-for-me-lately MSM baseball columnist."
Ouch!
RogerJolly - January 17, 2012
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