Christian Petersen - Getty Images
5 months ago: PHOENIX, AZ - SEPTEMBER 20: Andrew McCutchen #22 of the Pittsburgh Pirates high fives Pedro Alvarez #24 after scoring agianst the Arizona Diamondbacks during the fifth inning of the Major League Baseball game at Chase Field on September 20, 2011 in Phoenix, Arizona. (Photo by Christian Petersen/Getty Images)
Neal Huntington says in this interview that in order to trade Andrew McCutchen, he would need another team to offer a "dramatic overpay." That's pretty much what we'd hope he would say, of course -- you'd want him to listen if an amazing offer came along, but with McCutchen still under team control for four more years, there's no pressing reason to trade him.
That said, it's a drag that Huntington has been here for four years and we're still talking about this. If Huntington's first two first-round picks were looking better, I doubt anyone would be asking him about trading McCutchen, because there would clearly be a pretty exciting groundswell of young talent in Pittsburgh. Now, though, there's a big age gap between McCutchen and the rest of the Pirates' best young players. So while I still think the four years of control makes a McCutchen deal unlikely, it isn't a possibility that they can dismiss outright.
Huntington also talks about how he added "veteran leadership" this offseason in Clint Barmes, Rod Barajas and Erik Bedard.
Via MLB Trade Rumors.
0 recs | 176 comments
2012 is a watershed year for the Pirates's future
It still could be that Pittsburgh has a groundswell of young talent coming. If Pedro starts mashing at last and Sanchez recovers his form, then there’s reason for real, actual optimism starting in 2013 rather than kicking the can down the road to 2014 or 2015.
In many ways, other than Pedro and perhaps Tabata, what happens with the ML club this year is almost irrelevant going forward. WIll Cole dominate the low minors like he should and be on a fast track for a MLB debut in June 2013? Will Taillon gain full command of his fastball? Was Robbie Grossman a one year wonder? Will Josh Bell show why he was signed for $5MM?
If all, or even most, of those answers are yes, then the Bucs have a real shot to compete for the rest of the decade with Andrew McCutchen as a centerpiece….a winning team from 2013-2015 gives more money to sign him and gives him a reason to stick around in the first place.
If Pedro and Sanchez fall flat, though and the minors kids flounder, it’s time to tack another 5 years at least onto the losing streak.
Raybin - January 25, 2012
I continue to agree
with the handsome, thoughtful, and insightful Raybin.
I would only add that we should learn about whether McDonald, Morton, and, to a lesser extent, Lincoln will play meaningful roles in the team’s future. Any one of those guys could step up and become meaningful parts of the rotation throughout the McCutchen years (obviously with differing ceilings), or they could all be nothing more than placeholders. If one or more of them become long term pieces, then our pitching becomes a real strength – not just Cole and Taillon and whoever, but 2 aces with serious depth behind them.
JRoth95 - January 25, 2012
“Pirates shopping McCutchen!”
— #JPerrotto
WTM - January 25, 2012
c42 stated this yesterday in the marte thread
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
Ah. I hadn’t seen it.
Charlie Wilmoth - January 25, 2012
i also noticed at the bottom sano has changed agents.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2012/01/quick-hits-zimmermann-mccutchen-cespedes-sano.html
could it be he ain’t happy he is not a buc.
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
errrr, no?
white angus - January 25, 2012
why not?
it was reported he was crying that he was not a pirate. gayo tried to backdoor the agent. he paid us back by not offering a chance to match. the kid was said to be distressed.
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
heres the BD story with a link to the pg blog
http://www.bucsdugout.com/2009/9/29/1061131/miguel-sano-to-sign-with-twins
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
hes one of the top prospects in the game, and thats as a non-pirate
im sure he could care less about the color of his uniform as long as he gets to the show.
white angus - January 25, 2012
the great one is a big deal to latin players
ask tabs about his ink.
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
And Tabata is Venezuelan at that
Sano is from the Dominican, where Clemente is still viewed as a combination of Babe Ruth, Mother Teresa and Elvis.
Raybin - January 26, 2012
Sure, NOW he changes agents
Grumble.
Raybin - January 25, 2012
I'd hope he'd say
No. We want Andrew to be in Pittsburgh for a long, long time, and we’re hopeful we can make that happen.
I find this response pretty depressing, honestly. Do GMs ever talk about possibly trading a guy when extension negotiations are progressing?
epoc - January 25, 2012
they do if they are ASKED.
white angus - January 25, 2012
do they?
I’d think that they’d lie so as not to rock the boat.
epoc - January 25, 2012
Catch-22
If NH says they have no interest in trading McCutchen regardless of the offer, which is a lie, then gets presented with such a sweet deal that he can’t possibly say no, he gets torn apart for being a liar and misleading the fan base.
If NH says that they would have to be overwhelmed by an offer in order to make that trade but that it is possible, which is honest, he gets torn apart for accurately reflecting the situation he is in, which is that as a small-budget GM, he must constantly be vigilant for deals that will be of most benefit to the club.
His best course of action, apparently, is to pretend his phone is ringing whenever an interviewer asks something like this and act like a friend is calling him to tell him a giant asteroid is hurtling toward earth, meaning certain doom for all life on the planet. He can then run screaming from the room in mock panic, thus saving himself from having to deal with the question; he can follow up with the interviewer the following day to say that his “friend” was mistaken about the asteroid.
Bishop1973 - January 25, 2012
You must watch Happy Endings.
Willton - January 25, 2012
That I do.
Glad my reference wasn’t completely wasted.
Bishop1973 - January 25, 2012
perhaps we should refer to this as a “Cutch-22”
grambo119 - January 25, 2012
IMO
I think that the “dramatic overpay” is a compliment to Andrew McCutchen.
I would argue that the words “this is a business” have been uttered by BOTH sides when it comes to extension talks. If McCutchen is looking for “open market” value with respect to an extension, then it is “only business” if Pittsburgh is keeping the trade door open…albeit very slightly.
insane_sanity - January 25, 2012
Huntington can be honest to a fault when speaking to the press
Raybin - January 25, 2012
Agreed
It seems like softening the blow for a deal in a year or two. It’s way too early to be commenting on a Cutch trade and NH should just say so. Every GM knows it would take a huge overpayment currently.
Mr. E - January 25, 2012
yep, but for some reason, most reporters still ask questions where everyone already knows the answer
its almost as if they are trying to catch NH saying something wrong
white angus - January 25, 2012
"Veteran leadership"
Sweet fancy Moses, can’t we bury that once and for all?
bucdaddy - January 25, 2012
+1
Light it on fire, chop it up, bury it and salt the earth around the grave.
Raybin - January 25, 2012
On a related note...
I am just glad not to hear “Fine young man.”
wrecking_ball - January 25, 2012
I've never been in the major leagues but
I did play an absurd amount of baseball year round in high school. Some of our seniors would pretty shitty and nobody looked at them to lead because they were always on the bench. Often times it was the juniors or more talented sophomores. That said, I guess our signees are probably above shitty senior level.
bosten7 - January 25, 2012 via mobile
Overbay mentioned this
Or maybe it was NH in regard to Overbay. Anyway, the statement was generally “He couldn’t lead because he couldn’t play”. I think it was NH
glass0941 - January 25, 2012
Yep, Huntington said that at Piratefest
Raybin - January 25, 2012
Ah, there we go!
I knew it was on here somewhere. I figured if I stabbed around in the dark with enough generalities, someone more intelligent than I would be able to verify that.
glass0941 - January 25, 2012
I'm all for trading McCutchen
He is a fan favorite no doubt. If he were to have a huge season he would still have 3 years under contract. That alone might fetch a big offer from someone. We have Marte waiting in the wings. McCutchen is not the greatest of centerfielders. He is not a natural base stealer, as his percentage indicates. He has a good chance of never being a 30 hr guy. Getting a big return for him would put the minor league talent over the top. Waiting for him to have one year left on his contract will not bring back nearly the return then. Okay I’m covering up my face now like Ali with rope a dope. Let’s have it.
yellowpotbelly - January 25, 2012
Why does everyone assume...
….Marte will play CF for the Bucs?
Someone asked Huntington recently about Cutch shifting away from center for Marte and his response was to laugh and say “You tell him that.”
Marte in left, Cutch in center and Tabata in right. Presley as 4th OF or trade bait. Easy peasy.
Raybin - January 25, 2012
not everyone does
you could very well trade McCutchen and run Marte/Hernandez/Tabata out there and keep Presley. Hernandez is probably the best defensive CF in the organization — if McCutchen were traded, he could play CF in Pittsburgh…as long as the offensive production was picked up at other positions.
What if McCutchen was traded to, say, the Blue Jays and picked up Lawrie + D’Arnaud + more (purely hypothetical – could be the “dramatic overpayment” we’re talking about)? You’d pick up some offense to make up for the loss of McCutchen, and you’d also cover 3B and C, and maybe more, (move Pedro to 1B if he starts to hit) and do so for many years going forward.
insane_sanity - January 25, 2012
this!
the only players off limits, IMO, are cole and taillon.
white angus - January 25, 2012
I'm uncomfortable ever putting any players off limits
I love my car, but give me 3X the cost of purchasing a simliar car and it’s yours. I’m a big fan of both Cole and Taillon… but if another team made some crazy offer of 3 comparably talented guys, it’s foolish not to listen. It seems unlikely that someone would do that, but it’s unlikely that the Pirates will win 84 games next year… doesn’t mean it won’t happen!!!!!
NOTE: Upon further thought on “What’s off limits in my life?” the only thing without monetary value to me is my girlfriend.
SuperBaes - January 25, 2012
ok
but if you offered me three girlfriends about as hot as my one girlfriend, i’d be tempted to listen
Mingy - January 25, 2012
I couldn't afford it
It’d be like trading Cutch for Sabathia, Teix, and Cano: amazing value, but who pays for all those contracts?
SuperBaes - January 25, 2012
I'd at least see
if they could pass the physical.
MDBuc - January 25, 2012
I'm with NH - it would have to blow my socks off
So how many professional games has Marte played? Will he be a star- maybe. I remember a player who broke into the big leagues with the Pirates on September 23, 1968, as a 21-year old. He wasn’t very big, never hit more than 22 HRs in a ML season. His name was Al Oliver. He was a pivotal player on those winning Bucco teams. I guess what I am saying, the Bucs can’t have all super stars on their team, one they can’t afford it and two, how many teams do? I have to agree with Ray, Cutch with Tabata and if Marte is successful would be a fantanstic OF for many years to come.
long4willie - January 25, 2012
Cutch, Marte and somebody else...
might be a fantastic OF for many years to come. Using Tabata in the same sentence as fantastic is quite a stretch.
nycbucsfan - January 25, 2012 via mobile
You realize Jose and Starling are the same age, right?
Of course you do. And you also know Jose is a career .285 hitter in the major leagues while Starling has yet to play a game in AAA.
Mr. E - January 25, 2012
Stop with your facts!
i
Raybin - January 25, 2012
What is your point,
aside from being condescending? A .285 avg with no power from a corner OF? No, thanks.
I simply project Marte to become a much better and more valuable player than Tabata.
What is difficult to understand about that evaluation?
nycbucsfan - January 25, 2012 via mobile
That if Marte has projection left, so does Tabs
glass0941 - January 25, 2012
Except that Tabata showed vastly improved on base skills this past season. And improved power for a part of it. Either or both of those would give Tabata a lot of value.
thecheeseisblue - January 25, 2012
His OBP went from .346 to .349. If you are referring to his increased walk rate, that varied wildly from month to month.
Improved power? His ISO was .096, he slugged .362 and his GB/FB ratio was fifth highest in MLB, behind those renowned sluggers Ben Revere, Wilson Valdez, Derek Jeter, and Ichiro Suzuki.
nycbucsfan - January 25, 2012
There still seems to be a prevailing opinion that Tabata has the potential to hit for additional power in the coming years. I tend to wonder if his swing, which thus far has produced a ground ball rate of around 60% will prevent that but there’s certainly still room for projection. Hopefully he can stay healthy and actualize some of that this year. I think we should at least see a full year of the guy before deciding he’ll never hit for additional power.
rj.reynolds - January 25, 2012
or Tabata stays in the leadoff role, turns singles into doubles, doubles into triples and water into wine
white angus - January 26, 2012
I'll drink to that.
cocktailsfor2 - January 26, 2012
I have no doubt he will
Raybin - January 26, 2012
just cause his wife had a baby w/o planting his seed
the federal government and i am not ready to call him jesus.
karreemofwheat - January 26, 2012
why not?
it might be his real name anyway. he may have “carmona-ed” his way to the states.
white angus - January 26, 2012
Venezuela is supposed to be on the up and up with birth documents.
karreemofwheat - January 26, 2012
By Latin American standards, they’re one of the best, though I won’t vouch for the state of things in another five years.
Vlad - January 26, 2012
Tabata's real name is Dan Roberto Jenkins
you heard it here first.
white angus - January 26, 2012
where is jackie gleason?
rec’ed
karreemofwheat - January 26, 2012
Was jackie
the one who “played the game and would know”?
BlindSquirrel - January 26, 2012
dan jenkins played the game
i think dj became jg
karreemofwheat - January 26, 2012
that is correct.
cocktailsfor2 - January 26, 2012
pot meet kettle
white angus - January 25, 2012
Or as I prefer to say it
I’m sorry, is this a smurf calling the sky blue?
glass0941 - January 25, 2012
NH needs to play hardball
“Cutch, if you don’t sign an extension, we’ll trade you to Seattle.”
Actually, there must be a more effective threat – Oakland? – but if he’s unhappy with the level of talent in Pittsburgh, well, he could do worse.
JRoth95 - January 25, 2012
Up until recently
We could have threatened him with this.
cocktailsfor2 - January 25, 2012
Kentucky Fried Movie
Fantastic!!!
SuperBaes - January 25, 2012
word!
white angus - January 25, 2012
non -sense statement
A team would have to overpay for him is a bla bla statement .First off do the pirates really have 4 yrs of control over a guy who could break the bank in 2 yrs in arbitration. Also if huntington does trade cutch can’t he now claim that a team step up and overpaid for him ,being that its the only way he would trade him.
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
Yes, they do. The definition of control is that they get to choose whether to pay him or not, he can’t leave if he wants to and no one else can make him an offer. You are confusing control with cost control, two different things.
Like confusing
With
Wizard of Woz - January 25, 2012
2nd yr arb number
14.5 million, no way they do that. if they trade him now ,cutch would be at his highest trade value. very cheap this yr, next his 1st yr of arb the pirates still can afford and his trade value is still some what high. 2nd yr of arb the clock strikes 12 for the pirates can’t afford him they lost control of him.ps they must over pay him in any kind of exstention.
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
that's not correct
for $14.5m they can keep McCutchen w/o dealing with free agency. As such, he is still under team control.
The dollar amount does not matter — the Giants still had Lincecum under team control…even if arb was going to cost them $21m this season. He could not explore FA.
insane_sanity - January 25, 2012
Lincecum
His deal is absolutely ridiculous. I know that arbitrators didn’t give him that, but Sabean’s not a moron; he had to have some indication that they would reward Timmy richly. I’m personally afraid of arbitration now.
SuperBaes - January 25, 2012
I think
they tried to avoid arbitration with Lincecum because they didn’t want to damage the relationship in the hopes that they could still work out an extension before he hits the open market.
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
I’m more concerned that they offered him a record $17 million and he wanted more.
SuperBaes - January 25, 2012
I think he's kind of the exception
I mean, how many Cy Youngs has Cutch won? Of course that’s not a fair question, but you get the idea. Lincecum was the top pitcher in the league.
glass0941 - January 25, 2012
Exactly
Cutch is amazing, but Timmy has a Cy Young (or two?).
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 25, 2012
Two
He won two Cy Youngs in a row just before his super-2 year.
That’s how your baseline salary gets set insanely high.
WHYG Zane Smith - January 25, 2012
Reaganomics
I’m worried about the trickle-down effect; though it didn’t happen as much with A-Rod or Ryan Howard as I thought it would. Maybe the lack of attention on Pittsburgh affects MVP votes for Cutch, thus keeping his cost down? Hooray for small markets/losing reputations!!
SuperBaes - January 26, 2012
perhaps
what affects MVP votes for Cutch is hitting .216 the 2nd half of the season.
I would prefer we extend him. If not, I would prefer we owe him $15m in arbitration. That would mean he would put up some pretty damn NICE numbers the next few seasons…and not disappear like he did the 2nd half of this season.
insane_sanity - January 26, 2012
and also
Braun treating his herpes.
BlindSquirrel - January 26, 2012
dude
if the pirates don’t sign cutch to an extention in the next 2 yrs he is gone. so what they have to do is feel out the trade market for cutch. if they feel an offer is to their liking they will pull the trigger.4yrs of control is for teams that can afford the3rd and 4th year off control ,the pirates can not afford his 3rd and 4th yr so they really don’t have control.also if the pirates trade cutch right now, small market teams would be in the mix because he is cheap for 1 yr and reasonable for yr 2 and then they can move him after that. I’m looking at you tampa.
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
Is it really
your contention that the Pirates would DECLINE to offer McCutchen arbitration in his 2nd Arb year if it would cost them $14M? They would let him walk?
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
they would trade him
before that a bargin bin prices.
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
Giving up a valuable asset
for well below market value would be an indefensible economic decision. If you have something worth $30M and you sell/trade it for $5M, you lose $25M. If you only want to pay $10M and have to pay $15M you lose $5M. Explain to me why a “cheap” ownership group would willingly set $20M on fire.
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
because
its not worth 30 million to the pirates because the can’t afford 3rd arb money for cutch and everyone knows it. thats why you move him now at his highest value. think like your the small stack at a texas hold’em table, big fish will push you around because you really don’t belong at the table and everyone knows it.the longer you wait to go all in the less money you have to double up. This is the first time where pirates are in a position of strength with one of there players, trade for the best offer which will a good one or give him away in 2 yrs.
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
The Astros
Didn’t think they could afford Hunter Pence’s Arb. award and everybody knew it. The “bargain basement price” they got for him was two top-100 prospects including, arguably, the best 1B prospect in baseball. This was also for a player that was nowhere near as good as Andrew McCutchen.
Also, The team CAN afford him, it’s just a matte of how much they want to spend. As of now, the Pirates have $6.5M, $3M, and $4M committed to payroll in the 3 years McCutchen goes to arbitration. They can make it happen if they need to.
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
phillies have been trading crap
for years
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
Ok
then trade with Philly. Hey, look I fixed the problem. I also point you back to the fact that the Pirates have $3M committed to the payroll in the season you suggest Cutch will break their bank. If it comes down to trading Cutch for a lousy package because they can’t afford him and non-tendering some mid-level Arb eligible guys and going with minor leaguers, do you really think the front office would trade Cutch for pennies on the dollar? Your hypothetical is just not correct at all.
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
LALALALALALA
cocktailsfor2 - January 25, 2012
Good lordy!
that’s quite a set of choppers!
BlindSquirrel - January 26, 2012
And what do you base that on?
There is no evidence that this FO will do that.
Wizard of Woz - January 25, 2012
Because NUTTING IS CHEAP that's why!
Also, sale the team. And such.
Raybin - January 25, 2012
SALE the team!!!!!
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
my opinion
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
for the record i've drank both
murphy’s oil soap gives the pleasanter diarrhea. both were better than guinness.
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
lol
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
BlindSquirrel - January 26, 2012
i think we all know which sweetleb drinks
theatrain - January 25, 2012
Well
It is nice to see that Neal is alive. I thought he might be near death, or maybe on an African safari without cell phone service
God Loves - January 25, 2012
Trading McCutchen not end of the world
I have posted this over and over again. The worst thing we can do is let him walk to free agency. I read somewhere last year that McCutchen because of his age, talent and price was in the top 5 for what they could value coming back in prospects. There are teams out there that are desperate for a CF and have a ton of prospects. The Nats come to mind…As do the Angels. As for the person who commented on the first two draft picks not ripping it up. How has strasberg done so far in the majors… oh mixed results because he’s been hurt… how about show me a team that in the same years picked first rounders that are both doing well in the majors right now. There is a reason more and more teams are stockpiling players in the minors rather than bank on 1 guy to come through.
sidbreamslegs - January 25, 2012
I agree....mostly...but..
at some point…we have to stop trading for prospects and win too lol…..
We do have to somewhere along the line stop trading our valued talent and hope to build on it, AND add a few Free Agents to complement them.
lfhlaw - January 25, 2012
I agree to a certain extent
with this comment. However keeping and adding talent to the big league club also requires timing. As has been mentioned here before, why add when this team is not competetive yet and probably won’t be for the next couple years? It kinda has to be the perfect storm, or windows of opportunity as I’ve seen people here mention in the past. Otherwise it may get the designation of "putting lipstick on a pig.
Enchinga - January 25, 2012
the pirates will never stop trading for prospects
cutch is not going to be a pirate for life. what was the last quality player the pirates had that started as a pirate and retired as a pirate? (not counting ones who came back to pitt after playing elsewhere, smartguys)
white angus - January 25, 2012
Depending
on what you mean by “last” (do you mean the guy who started his career most recently or the guy to end his career most recently) it was either Bob Moose (started in ‘67) or Pops (retired in ’82). If you’re willing to use a loose definition of “quality” you could say Randy Tomlin and Rich Loiselle.
ugh…
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
there's not too many guys that do that in ANY organization anymore
Kirby Puckett, Barry Larkin and Cal Ripken come to mind. Jeter, Mo Riviera. Any other significant players?
lloyd95 - January 26, 2012
Well, let me think a second...
Craig Biggio
Chipper Jones
Jorge Posada
Joe Mauer has a real chance
Ichiro (kind of)
That’s all I can come ip with, off the top of my head.
Midnight Moose - January 27, 2012
Bagwell, if you count ML time only
You might want to look at the All-True Teams, which are the best players to have spent their whole career with a single team. Most of the active players are guys who haven’t left yet.
WHYG Zane Smith - January 27, 2012
That's a good find, WHYG
Midnight Moose - January 27, 2012
Neither the Nats nor the Angels...
have the depth or elite prospects to land McCutchen. The Nats pillaged their system for Gonzalez and the Angels won’t be tradimg Trout any time soon. That is the problem; few teams have what it takes to make this happen. Now if Texas decides to let Hamilton walk, Profar, Perez and Olt would ger me to return their call.
nycbucsfan - January 25, 2012 via mobile
It's not that it would necessarily
be a bad thing, but rather that it would be difficult for another team to come up with the necessary asking price. Just consider what the two teams you suggested would have to give up to make such a trade work.
For the Nationals, part of the problem is that they essentially traded everybody of value already outside of their most recent draft class (all of whom would have to be PTBNL’s) and Bryce Harper. To land McCutchen, they’d pretty much have to carve out everything else they have. To make a “fair” offer for McCutchen (valued between $65M-$85M depending on Arb. awards), they’d have to give up something between Harper ($36.5M), Rendon ($25.1M) and Robbie Ray($2.1M) on the low end to Harper, Rendon, Purke ($7.3M), Meyer ($7.3M) and Goodwin ($5.5M) on the high end.
For the Angels, their offer would have to range between Mike Trout ($36.5M), Garrett Richards ($9.8M), Jean Segura ($5.5M), Taylor Lindsay ($5.5M) and Kaleb Cowart ($5.5M) on the low end to…well, honestly, they’re not going to be able to get it done on the higher end.
People have suggested that a trade could be made using major leaguers. While this is possible, it’s tough to find a match for that too. Teams that are in the win-now mode and could use Cutch right away don’t want to deal big time talent from their ML roster because it makes it harder to win now. On the other hand, teams that don’t mind giving up studs off their ML roster are less likely to want McCutchen because by the time they are presumably ready to compete, he’ll be getting those big Arb. awards that Pirates fans are nervous about. One suggestion I saw mentioned the Blue Jays and a Lawrie/d’Arnaud-centered package. This might be one of the few types of packages that could make sense. Lawrie’s outstanding debut makes him more valuable than your average top-prospet. At the same time, he’s not established enough to be considered a ML star yet because, despite his great numbers last year in Toronto, this is the same guy that was good but not great with the bat going into 2011 and then exploded in the hitter friendly PCL and in a 150 AB sample size in Toronto. Those 150 AB’s give him extra value, but not enough for him to be considered a lock as a 150 OPS+ hitter for the next 6 years…
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
I'll disagree with your statement about letting him walk for free agency, but for the sake of argument
I’ll ‘agree’ that it’d be prudent not to let him walk.
That said, look at the return Hunter Pence got with a year-and-a-half of control left. We don’t need to trade him now. I wouldn’t even consider trading him until two offseasons from now. Instead, try and extend Cutch the next two seasons, and go from there.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 25, 2012
thry got nothing
sweetleb - January 25, 2012
What?
Jon Singleton, Jarred Cosart, and Domingo Santana are far from “nothing.” Very far.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 25, 2012
lalalalala
cocktailsfor2 - January 25, 2012
I don't think any other GM...
would say differently…….if they needed to improve the surrounding talent.
lfhlaw - January 25, 2012
Cutch = K
McCutch has now been in the Bigs 2 1/2 seasons.
This is the year he has to cut down on his K’s to maximize his potential/worth.
He may be more valuable to the team with more triples and less HR’s.
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 25, 2012
ummmmmmmm
what?
white angus - January 25, 2012
More triples
It seemed the last third of season, McCutch appeared to be overswinging, diving after pitches. My guess is he was “driving” for 25 HRs and 100 ribbies. K’s continued to mount up alarmingly, batting average plummeted lower than ever, and his ratio of RBIs dropped.
He has a beautiful gap-power swing, with legs that can gitty-up. If he learns this year to quit diving at pitches but use his natural line-drive swing, he will have less K’s, less high fly balls and pop-ups, more triples/doubles, more RBIs I think, and probably still hit around 20 HR.
McCutch’s legs were not nearly the factor last season as they had been in the previous 1 1/2 go-arounds.
He will be a better player and more valuable to Pirates if he has more triples and less HR’s.
Groat2Maz2Strangeglove - January 25, 2012
yes, i too believe that Cutch was trying to pad his stats
white angus - January 25, 2012
Listen to Hurdle
in the latest podcast.
He talks about this.
[/plug]
cocktailsfor2 - January 25, 2012
The key word here is "dramatic"...
…if the other team can provide a touring company of “No No Nanette” to play PNC, he’s as good as gone.
sanny manguillen - January 25, 2012
Competetive vs Dynasty
Obviously, the Bucs as a small market team will never have a dynasty so the most they can hope to achieve is to be competitive, year in year out. We saw a glimse of this the first half of last year. IF the future pitchers come through like we hope they will, a team with light hitting, aka the SF Giants, might be able to get it done. Therefore, as part of “the plan” for the future, players selected via the draft should mimmick this. Thus if these future pitchers are strikeout pitchers mainly, defense may not be as important and a better hitting minor leaguer can be selected. Otherwise, for finesse type pitchers, a better defensive player would need to be picked. At this point, NH seems to like the power pitchers which should dictate what types of players are selected in trades such as Cutch, or any other player that comes to Pittsburgh.
long4willie - January 25, 2012
You know who else would have supplied some "veteran leadership"?
Pujols and Fielder, just to name two.
bucdaddy - January 25, 2012
Yeah, absolutely!
Even better would’ve been for Huntington to build a time machine and bring back Lou Gehrig from 1927! That 1B problem = SOLVED!
Raybin - January 25, 2012
Uh…NH already broke up the 1927 Yankees. Now you want him to put them back together?
matskralc - January 25, 2012
REC
cocktailsfor2 - January 25, 2012
yes
C Shint - January 25, 2012
Hah! Love it.
Raybin - January 26, 2012
If I hear a player associated with “veteran leadership,” I immediately downgrade my projection of him by .025 OPS points.
Suffering Buc - January 25, 2012
Derek Jeter called,
He says you’re right. But doesn’t appreciate you trashing the one thing he still brings to the team (besides sub par cologne)
glass0941 - January 25, 2012
+1
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 25, 2012
well...
IF McCutchen were to be shopped what would you guys call an “dramatic overpay” for McCutchen? What would you want in return for him?
After looking over everyones roster and minor league systems there does’nt seem to be too many matches. I love Matt Cain I think he would be good starting grounds, but San Franciscos system is pretty thin beyond Gary Brown.
Maybe Atlanta? Jurrjens, Andrelton Simmons, and one of Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado?
Maybe the Yankees? Austin Romine, Dellin Betances, and Dante Bichette Jr?
Maybe the Blue Jays are the best fit? Kyle Drabek, Travis D’Arnaud, and Jake Marisnick?
Or what about Minnesota? Miguel Sano?
FusilliJerry88 - January 25, 2012
The irony of dealing Cutch to Minnesota for a package built around Miguel Sano is overwhelming.
SuperBaes - January 25, 2012
mark my words sano will go to the HOF in a bucs hat
IMDO 1/25/12
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
lol
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
This
sums it up nicely. There just aren’t a lot of teams out there that could meet Cutch’s value. It won’t happen, but I would take Lawrie, d’Arnaud, and Drabek for Cutch. I know that some might laugh at the notion that Toronto would ever part with Lawrie but remember that this is a guy who is only 20 AB’s (actualy I can’t remember if the cutoff is 130 ABs or PAs but I’m not looking it up) over still being considered a prospect. An elite prospect but a prospect nonetheless. That would make it a trade for a top-10 hitting prospect, a top 25 hitting prospect and a former top pitching prospect coming off a trainwreck season. Looking at it that way makes it seem less shocking than it might if people assume that Lawrie will sustain his 152 OPS+ from now until the end of time…
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
And
I would take that Blue Jays package KentuckyPirate outlined above, but they would need to throw in Syndergaard/Nicolino/McGuire or something like that.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 25, 2012
yes
that would be the type of overpay we would have to see.
insane_sanity - January 26, 2012
None
of those come close.
Two real options.
Braves – Teheran, Vizcaino, Minor, Simmons, and Salcedo
Rangers – Profar, Martin, Olt, Buckel, Ramirez
Those are overpays. Those are packages I would consider.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 25, 2012
Wow I’d throw in Allie with Cutch to the Braves just so I wouldn’t feel like a dick
Merle1989 - January 26, 2012 via mobile
But yes I understand you are saying those are over pays for him but that’d be awesome.
Merle1989 - January 26, 2012 via mobile
those both sound about right, also i’m sure i’m in the minority but i would take either deal
C Shint - January 26, 2012
I'd
take those deals in a second. I doubt you are in the minority. Neither offer will ever come though.
I messed up the Rangers deal. Minus Buckel, add Martin Perez.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 26, 2012
That might notionally be fair on value, but I wouldn’t take it. Jurrjens is suspect since he’s coming off arm problems (and a fair bit of good luck last year as well), and I’m not sold on Simmons.
I wouldn’t take that offer.
I wouldn’t take that offer, either. The Jays just don’t match up well with us in terms of needs, and I don’t trust Drabek at all.
Vlad - January 26, 2012
Heard Jurrjens name some, nothing pressing
How much value does Atlanta expect out of him via the trade market? I know that his name has been floated a few times, and that offer looks better if NH is able to flip Jurrjens to a contender for another B+ish guy.
SuperBaes - January 26, 2012
They were reportedly trying to trade him and Prado to the Orioles for Adam Jones, but who knows whether that was actually true? In any event, the Orioles weren’t interested at that price.
Vlad - January 26, 2012
I disagree on the Jays
I do think a combo of Lawrie (3B), D’Arnaud ©, perhaps Alvarez (MLSP) and one of their top pitching prospects would be interesting.
This, of course, would result in Alvarez moving to 1B.
insane_sanity - January 26, 2012
I’m pretty sure they aren’t going to trade Lawrie, and once you get past him, I don’t like most of their guys at our positions of need very much.
Vlad - January 26, 2012
thats pretty much every position, aint it?
white angus - January 26, 2012
True.
Might be better to say “positions of greatest need”.
Vlad - January 27, 2012
well
I’m pretty sure we’re not going to trade McCutchen.
Including one “untouchable” for another seemed to be par for the course.
I do agree with you, though, with respect to putting any other type of deal together w/o him.
insane_sanity - January 26, 2012
Are we guilty of overvaluing Cutch?
What would we expect in return?
I know it’s a topic of disagreement, but NH’s record on trades is spotty at best (Morton and…). While I like NH, I don’t think he’d “win” a Cutch trade or even get an even deal. That’s especially true as each year of control passes without a long-term contract.
CO_Bucs - January 25, 2012
I expect
That they either
1) sign him to an extension
2) make a deal along the lines of Lawrie, d’Arnaud and Drabek for Cutch now
3) let Cutch play out his arbitration years then let him leave and collect 2 picks for him
or 4) trade him with a season and a half of control left for 2 or 3 top-100 prospects like the ’Stros did with Hunter Pence.
KentuckyPirate - January 25, 2012
5} take out a billion dollar insurance policy
run him over in the street, an collect the double indemnity policy.
karreemofwheat - January 25, 2012
Only if
you can frame Smizik as the driver.
cocktailsfor2 - January 25, 2012
To collect the 2 draft picks after Cutch plays out his arby years, they would have to offer him a damned healthy contract…currently around $12M. And that number could go up in the next few years.
On a mainly unrelated note…I notice that there still is not a copy of the new CBA available online. The MLBPA site still links to the 2007-2011 agreement.
Thunder - January 25, 2012
That sounds reasonable.
CO_Bucs - January 26, 2012
No, because we’re explicitly saying that another team would need to pay much more than he’s worth in order to get him. We don’t have any real reason to trade the guy, so a more realistic price tag isn’t necessary – if no one meets the asking price and we don’t trade him, that’s a perfectly acceptable outcome.
Vlad - January 26, 2012
THIS
cocktailsfor2 - January 26, 2012
We DO, however, have to be concerned with Neal undervaluing Cutch with that dreaded “internal value” Neal always speaks of.
Thunder - January 26, 2012
nuh uhhhhhhhh
white angus - January 26, 2012
I see your point
But one, there’s always value – so it doesn’t make sense to say just because another team would have to overpay, the question of overvaluing is null. Two, if no one meets the asking price and we don’t trade him, it’s not really an acceptable outcome if the next turn is that we don’t sign him to a longer extension either.
CO_Bucs - January 26, 2012
The stumbling block to an extension up until now has been Cutch not wanting to give up any FA years. As such, until he modifies that position, he’s under team control for the same amount of time whether he signs an extension or not.
Vlad - January 26, 2012
Has it been giving up FA years really?
I thought it had been the $$$ amount that was the hangup, but that was months ago when I remember (or thought I remember) reading that and being encouraged that it was $$$ amount and not years that he was hung up on.
NastyNate82 - January 28, 2012
you lose 90 with him an
with out him, try to trade him to set themselves up for window number 2.Core 4 is dead ,move on.
sweetleb - January 26, 2012
Pirates' Core 4
Cutch, Tabata, Alvarez, and Walker? (I had to look up this article at Fangraphs for that.)
Really pales in comparison to the more heralded Yankees’ Core 4. And I thought they gave those guys some credit for all being up the middle?
SuperBaes - January 26, 2012
on MLBTR yesterday during that online chat
someone asked Bryce Harper and Anthony Rendon for Andrew McCutchen? Who hangs up first. The response was the Pirates would do that, but I don’t think the nats would.
I know I would def do that trade in a second.
BigB2323 - January 26, 2012
I love Rendon
But if the Pirates’ concern about his shoulder swayed them from drafting him, it seems inconsistent to trade for him now. Was I misinformed pre-draft or was a major impetus in drafting Cole Rendon’s injury concern?
SuperBaes - January 26, 2012
IIRC
it was the shoulder injury that resulted in his fall in the draft, not the ankle (which is routinely reported).
The ankle seemed fine this past season, it was the shoulder that kept him out of the field.
insane_sanity - January 26, 2012
You
are informed correctly, but it’s Rendon and Harper. Notice the and. I’d want Solis thrown in though actually.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - January 26, 2012
Solis' elbow
Did they ever shake that out? Last month, he was visiting with Dr. Yocum… have they decided whether or not to do Tommy John?
I also love David Freitas… I feel like he’s a good lottery ticket to acquire.
How amazing is it that Washington can spend heavy in prospects to get Gio Gonzalez and still have the ammunition to pull off another major deal?
SuperBaes - January 26, 2012
that found a few sleepers, like Peacock
white angus - January 26, 2012
What about AJ Cole? I would have him near the top of my want list.
pskell02 - January 26, 2012
then you'd need to talk to Billy Beane
Cole went to Oakland in the Gio Gonzalez deal.
WHYG Zane Smith - January 26, 2012
Totally forgot about that. Still, he’s a guy I would be more than happy picking up, knowing full well that it will never happen.
pskell02 - January 26, 2012
yeah
was it Cole’s bonus demands that landed him in the 4th round?
I remember him being on the board when we drafted Rojas…Taillon/Allie/Cole would have been an impressive group of young arms in any draft.
insane_sanity - January 27, 2012
The weird thing I remember reading about Cole though
is that he had awesome velocity (when he was drafted) but didn’t seem to have much else. Now, obviously you can get drafted with just that, but it also sounds like some misinformation that dupes like me read. Either way, I think Gio was vastly overrated with the BB issues (not to mention the canyon he played in the last few years kept his numbers down).
NastyNate82 - January 28, 2012
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