Michael Sanserino reports that the A.J. Burnett deal is done, and is awaiting physicals and approval from the commissioner's office.
If this turns out to be a false start, it would yet another for what someone recently called The Most Over-Reported Trade Rumor Of All-Time. (I think that was David, but I'm not sure, and I'm paraphrasing.) Anyway, it looks like the Pirates will send Diego Moreno and another minor-leaguer, and will take on $13 million in salary.
I'm glad the Pirates are doing this -- this is the sort of we're-trying-to-take-ourselves-seriously move we need to see more of going forward. Burnett is hardly a lock for success in Pittsburgh, given his age, but he's a pretty good bet -- he's going to like pitching in PNC Park. He's also a clear upgrade on Kevin Correia, and he should also provide the Pirates with some stability, which they're going to need badly with Charlie Morton and Erik Bedard currently in the rotation. This trade means way fewer innings for Correia and also for whoever's behind Brad Lincoln, whether that's Jo-Jo Reyes or someone else. (I think Lincoln will end up getting his chances almost no matter what, as long as he shows he's worthy of them.) That's great news.
UDPATE: Burnett's ZiPS projection in Pittsburgh:
And yes, Burnett's projection improves to an ERA+ of 91 in Pittsburgh, 9-11, 4.22, 168.1 IP
UPDATE 2:39 PM: Jonathan Mayo reports that the other player in the deal is Exicardo Cayones, who once looked like one of the Pirates' more interesting young Latin players but couldn't hack it in State College in 2011. He's now 20. I think this is probably a spot where the Pirates are pretty sure he isn't going to amount to much. If they did, they probably would have sent him to West Virginia to start the season, or at least let him spend more time struggling at State College. As with Moreno, if they had liked him better, they would have been more aggressive with him. We'll see whether the Pirates turn out to be right about these players, but my guess is that they probably feel like these were pretty safe players to trade away.
1 recs | 259 comments
Hooray
its over
Wizard of Woz - February 17, 2012
ohhhhhhhhhh, noooooooo...
its just begun.
bwahahahhahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
sorry, my A button is sticky
white angus - February 17, 2012
So how long until we get a fanpost about how awful
AJ is and how the FO is horrible? over/under 4 days.
Wizard of Woz - February 17, 2012
ummmm, im sure we'll see some the 2nd week of April
white angus - February 17, 2012
the first game he’ll give up more than 3 runs
Elektrostal_Kid - February 18, 2012
Unfortunately the physical includes a week-long eye test. Thanks a lot Nate McLouth
TravisDW - February 17, 2012
"Anyone could pass the eye test in Pittsburgh."
Maybe he should go back to not wearing contacts.
Nate Wilder - February 17, 2012
All next week on Twitter …
Charlie Wilmoth - February 17, 2012
Just wait
Until Moreno unloads to the media about the Pirates’ team dentist.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
Sweetleb has a source that says AJ Burnett will fail physical...
due to ingrown toenail.
Nate Wilder - February 17, 2012
I think you mean “fale the physical”
TravisDW - February 17, 2012
Fale the team.
Nate Wilder - February 17, 2012
Or “phale the fysical.”
WTM - February 17, 2012
hey
the commish and a physical could veto this trade , the yanks stole money and players in this trade. burrnett has given up 72 hr on fastball the last 3 yrs ,not a good sing for a ahem power pitcher.
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
Ouch
good thing you had no credibility to lose.
Wizard of Woz - February 17, 2012
haha yeah
was thinking the same thing… this would have been a nice team for sweetleb and his “sources” to disappear!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Sweetleb makes me laugh
He’s the funniest guy here.
BarryJT - February 17, 2012
“not a good sing for a ahem power pitcher” WTF ?
michaelbro8 - February 17, 2012
I don't consider singing to be part of a pitchers job description, if that's what he is concerned about.
Music is Charlie’s domain, maybe he can enlighten us to how important carrying a tune is for a major leaguer.
BarryJT - February 17, 2012
What exactly does
given up 72 hr on fastball mean?
goodtymes31 - February 17, 2012
fastballs
when throwing a fastball he has given up 72 hr in the last 3 yr,second on that list shields at 52hr
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
it takes it 3 days to reach home plate?
white angus - February 17, 2012
No, it takes three days to translate this gibberish.
WTM - February 17, 2012
Come on guys
honestly (no really) he did look up a reasonably useful stat. Let’s give him that.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
maybe
where do you find that data? (I m shocked sweetleb knows where to find it, if it is real!)
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Except he got the basic point wrong. Burnett’s FB velocity is still very good for a starter . . . exactly the same as J-Mac’s in 2011. Along with finishing 10th in the AL in K/9 among starters, there are still plenty of good signs for Burnett as a power pitcher.
WTM - February 17, 2012
wrong
had a 95 mph with toronto in a 18 win season, 93 mph the last 3 yrs and that is when his hr and era went up. very good breaking stuff is where he gets his k’s.
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
stil wondering where you got the 72 hr on fastballs data
help, please?
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
yankee beat writer
on espn.
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
espn… lol
Elektrostal_Kid - February 18, 2012
and thank you, we all know what is your “source” now. Hilarious
Elektrostal_Kid - February 18, 2012
Not that I’d expect you to understand that reduced velocity doesn’t necessarily mean a guy can’t pitch any more, but it doesn’t. Burnett’s velocity was about the same in 2009 and 2010, yet he was good in 2009 and not in 2010. His peripheral numbers are still good, with the one significant problem being a fluky HR rate in 2011. But that’s several different things you have to take into account, so I realize it’s too complicated.
WTM - February 17, 2012
not sayin that
just like pedro martinez and many other fireballers, he is going to have become a more complete 3 pitch pitcher because he can;t amp up that 99 mph fastball anymore. back in the day he could make mistakes in the middle of the plate and get away with it, now not so much.
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
He hasn’t had a 99 mph fastball since 2007.
WTM - February 17, 2012
He's currently
being fairly reasonable. Give the kid/dude/girl a break WTM lol.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
that what she said.
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
hahahahahahahahaha
.
cocktailsfor2 - February 17, 2012
I don’t know what’s worse: the fact that you think you’re the man by ‘trolling’ us (Oh no, I keep responding, how dare I “feed the troll”), or the fact that, by “trolling” us, you’re actually putting yourself at a sub-human level of existence.
In other words — you’re the Zoidberg of this blog, without the hilarity.
ryebr3ad - February 17, 2012
wouldn't it be cool if the team could add certain blog-posters to the trade ?
“Burnett traded for Moreno, Cayones, and Sweetleb”
michaelbro8 - February 17, 2012
cannot poster dump
must get a poster back in trade!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
True; and I imagine some yanks posters could be worse.....
well, on second thought
michaelbro8 - February 17, 2012
Except we’d have to throw in Cole, Taillon and Bell to make that trade.
WTM - February 17, 2012
No!
Then we’d have to take on the full value of Burnett’s contract, plus better prospects
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
I fear what we would get in return...
what if we got fleeced, and got Bobbo in return?
cocktailsfor2 - February 18, 2012
lighten up francis
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
I think your the one that needs to lighten up
Juat sayin.
Bradley James McEachern - February 18, 2012
burrnett has given up 72 hr on fastball the last 3 yrs
so he throws as fast as me now?
gorillagogo - February 17, 2012
...
white angus - February 18, 2012
I can fix that!!! It's my job description!!!
Can I work for the Buccos?!?!?!?!?!!?!? lol
lfhlaw - February 17, 2012
Cashman no longer takes Huntington's calls
So they had to work out the entire deal via email!
ElDuce - February 17, 2012
Glad this is done...
this is the kind of risk they need to be taking right now. This makes the rotation pretty decent and if they are able to go deep into games consistently (as they did during the first half of last season) then they could have a decent season.
Of course Pedro needs to rebound and 1B needs to not be a liability but…
Mick Kraut - February 17, 2012
I was watching video of Pedro yesterday.
His AB’s did really get better toward the end, though better is an arbitrary term here, and he really lost like half a human being this offseason. It’s kind of shocking if you watch video then vs. now.
I know the weight thing isn’t a huge, huge deal, but the vibe I’ve gotten is that he wants to turn it on and has been working hard at it. I’d put money on him to rebound.
Nate Wilder - February 17, 2012
Oh no, warning track power!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
No problem
Same thing happened to Tabata when he filed for divorce.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
+1
hahahahaha
Nate Wilder - February 17, 2012
Ding ding; winna winna
michaelbro8 - February 17, 2012
oh he's going to rebound
Can we call him the “round mound of rebound”?
lloyd95 - February 17, 2012
Clubhouse Perspective
There’s another benefit to this deal so close to spring training, and it’s a positive sign to the team about the organization trying to improve the club. Everyone knows about the negativity about how the season ended after being in serious contention the first 103 games.
When everything is considered, I think the Bucs have improved the club from the 2011 version.
SteelStealth - February 17, 2012
Exicardo Cayones
is the second prospect per Mayo.
Enchinga - February 17, 2012
Epoc can come down from the ledge…
nycbucsfan - February 17, 2012 via mobile
Ha!
Charlie-faster than a speeding bullet.
Enchinga - February 17, 2012
wow, did anyone pick Moreno and Cayonez?
white angus - February 17, 2012
I said Moreno when the first rumors came out, but then changed my mind
I said he would probably become a all star closer for them
BigB2323 - February 17, 2012
BigB2323 - February 17, 2012
Not sure if you're serious...
but I’ve had a crush on Moreno since the insane K% 2010 and have always had the gnawing feeling he’s not getting his due from the org. for b.s. reasons of some nefarious sort. So of course I won’t be surprised to see him in the pen for the Yankees at some time this season. At the same time, I keep trying to make my brain convince my gut that odds are Burnett will produce like his SIERA/xFIP sez he should for 2 seasons and thereby dramatically limit Correia’s innings (thus potentially providing more WAC than he does WAR), while Moreno will be a run-of-the-mill reliever at best, so why should I care?
tobynotjason - February 17, 2012
Moreno prob could become a decent to above average RP
Its not like he doesn’t have the stuff ya know?
BigB2323 - February 17, 2012
The word we need to keep stressing here
is ‘reliever.’ That is synonymous with ‘low value’
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
But there IS very tasty upside there.
Striking out 40% of the hitters you face in a year is just crazy.
While I’ve argued til I’m blue about the relative (non) value of relief pitching with non-stat-types, being an absolute shut-down guy over a course of a buncha years is worth more than WAR says it’s worth. Not as much as WPA says it’s worth, maybe, but still… I think at the extreme of effectiveness it’s a beautiful thing.
Imagine you have a robot you can send out to pitch perfect 3-strikeout innings once per game, 50 times per season. Is that worth merely 50 innings of 0 FIP ball, per fWAR? I think it’s worth quite a bit more. But as soon as you stray into “really good” territory (from “absolute shutdown” territory), WAR makes perfect sense to me.
Of course, the odds that Moreno will work out to be a Rivera-caliber guy are silly small, so this is semantics, ain’t it?
tobynotjason - February 18, 2012
striking out everyone gives you a crazy negative FIP
I think it’d be something around -2.80. Not sure how much it’d be worth in fWAR, but I guess it’d be reasonably high. Maybe only around 3 or 4, though.
Interestingly, bbWAR likes Mariano Rivera much much more than fWAR. It’s something like 56 bbWAR to 39 fWAR, and bbWAR is usually lower by a healthy amount. So you may have a point about fWAR underrating shutdown relievers.
WHYG Zane Smith - February 18, 2012
striking out everyone gives you a crazy negative FIP
I think it’d be something around -2.80. Not sure how much it’d be worth in fWAR, but I guess it’d be reasonably high. Maybe only around 3 or 4, though.
Interestingly, bbWAR likes Mariano Rivera much much more than fWAR. It’s something like 56 bbWAR to 39 fWAR, and bbWAR is usually lower by a healthy amount. So you may have a point about fWAR underrating shutdown relievers.
WHYG Zane Smith - February 18, 2012
I actually knew that re: FIP's nuts and bolts and the negative, but was making a...
theoretical point about total shutdown relief with auto 0.00 RA. Should’ve just said “perfect 3 K innings”, I guess.
To be clear, I am NOT saying WAR systematically undervalues good closers. Actually, it’s kind of the opposite, since I’m not sure I always buy the 50% bonus credit it gives them for leverage. I am saying that at the extremes of relief dominance – way past merely above-average – I think it might, for all the reasons traditionalists argue a shutdown reliever is valuable. (It’s just that I only want to say this about actual, real, bygod shutdown closers, not everybody with 35 saves this year.) I’d also like to have a long enough track record to know I’m evaluating talent, not random variance, so I’d be hesitant to throw it at a
Since fWAR tracks FIP and FIP stops tracking ERA at extremes, it would make sense that fWAR would lose a guy whose extremely low ERAs have been better than his FIPs 9 out of the last 10 years.
tobynotjason - February 18, 2012
Cayones and Moreno
hmm little more than I thought they should good get, but good deal overall for a salary dump by the Yankees
BigB2323 - February 17, 2012
we're still punting
white angus - February 17, 2012
C42 must be heartbroken
He loved Exicardo. Alas.
Wizard of Woz - February 17, 2012
I think for the same reason I loved Exicardo,
what a great name. It’s a shame, now I have to hate him since he’s a Yankee.
MDBuc - February 17, 2012
TOTAL sadness.
.
cocktailsfor2 - February 17, 2012
Exicardo is gone :(
BostonBuc - February 17, 2012
Exicardo is pretty far down the depth chart now. They have a bunch of more promising outfielders in the low minors. He’d have had trouble getting PT.
WTM - February 17, 2012
didnt Cayones sign for a shitload of money?
white angus - February 17, 2012
By Pirates standards. $400K or something like that.
WTM - February 17, 2012
wow
sweetleb - February 17, 2012
wasnt he our biggest "foreign" signing until Heredia?
white angus - February 17, 2012
Yep
WTM - February 17, 2012
He was
But we signed two guys this year for more than. Plus he sucked last year
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
We win.
Now step 2 is to flip Burnett for more later.
I would have held out longer for more money but I can live with this.
Kosstic518 - February 17, 2012 via mobile
Assume Taillon and Cole exceed expectations WRT their development this season...
while Burnett pitches like his peripherals say he should. Do you flip him if there’s interest at the deadline or keep him around as a piece (complete with veteranosity for the rookie pitchers) in a potentially competitive 2013?
tobynotjason - February 17, 2012
I trade him the second he gets hot regardless of when it is.
Kosstic518 - February 17, 2012 via mobile
Doesn't he have some kind of limited movement clause?
Wouldn’t that limit our ability to trade him? Or is that clause affected by him being traded here?
Also, I can’t believe we’re already talking about flipping a guy who has been a Pirate for less than a day.
Superstar25 - February 18, 2012
Don't worry
I was already talking about flipping him 2 weeks ago.
Kosstic518 - February 18, 2012 via mobile
we bought his existing contract
he has a 10 team no trade clause, presumably all the westernmost teams.
karreemofwheat - February 18, 2012
Noooooo!
We can’t flip him. Burnett will be pitching and winning game 5 of the World Series this year. And that is after winning game 1.
vgsailor - February 17, 2012
I hope for his wife's sake
It’s at Camden Yards.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
that would explain how we won it
WHYG Zane Smith - February 17, 2012
Yep
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
flip him
like a half done pancake… prospects at the all star break, burnett pitching for ATL or Philly!
lloyd95 - February 17, 2012
Yep
Can I dream on Jean Segura or Hak-Ju-Lee?
Maybe just Andrelton Simmons.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
NOOOOOOOOOOOO
NOT EXICARDO!
DAMN.
cocktailsfor2 - February 17, 2012
:(
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
Good deal. I hope they try and get one more quality starter though and really bump KC outta town.
C Shint - February 17, 2012
I'd look up the Yankees
I’ve heard they’re pretty easy to deal with.
Maybe pick up Blanton and send Karstens AND Correia to the bullpen. They can can break camp with a 15-man pitching staff.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
I wouldnt mind that. I think there are cheaper/better options than Blanton though
C Shint - February 17, 2012
hey
lincoln can hit as well as anybody we got, so that’s one available PH
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Burnett is here for two years
I don’t think that they will look to flip him or Bedard. They are looking to fill the rotation and mildly compete while waiting for the youngsters to get ready. I think you are going to see Burnett eating up innings for at least a year and a half in Pittsburgh, hopefully with decent results.
sidbreamslegs - February 17, 2012
~10 million for Burnett and Bedard vs. ~10 million for Paul Maholm
Time for some people to admit they were wrong – by a lot – about NH’s handling of the pitching staff over the off-season………
Solid stuff. As Tim said, dealt from strength (RP/OF) and built up a weakness (SP).
Well done, NH.
Mr. Smizik - February 17, 2012
I think people would argue...
and I tend to agree, that we very well could have kept Maholm, and still added Burnett and Bedard. Round out the rotation with JMac, and Karstens to start the season (assuming Morton is on the DL), and let Morton replace an injured Bedard or back to earth Karstens. I still like our rotation better than last season, but outside of McDonald and Morton, I dont really think there are any pitchers on the staff that we needed to save innings for.
goodtymes31 - February 17, 2012
Maholm fetched considerably less on the open market.....
Picking up his option would have been an overpay by about 5 million dollars. Teams like the Bucs cannot afford those types of mistakes.
Plus, despite many on here, Maholm simply wasn’t and isn’t that good, especially at that salary.
Two better pitchers (obviously when healthy in Bedard’s case) for the price of one overpay. This offseason (in terms of SP) has been pretty well executed, by any reasonable measure.
Mr. Smizik - February 17, 2012
Stop making sense, Bob.
BarryJT - February 17, 2012
man if you're going to say stuff like that
u gotta change ur username!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
To be honest, they wouldn’t have known it was an overpay unless he actually signed for five million.
So, sure, now we know it would be an overpay — but if the Bucs took his option, I wouldn’t have complained due to the price.
ryebr3ad - February 17, 2012
They may have guessed (or projected). Isn’t that what GMs are supposed to do?
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
the words internal value come to mind
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
Im starting to think you're not the REAL bob smizik...
theatrain - February 18, 2012
me too
BlindSquirrel - February 19, 2012
This lines up with the FO’s comments regarding salary growth with attendance growth, assuming things are indeed looking up in 2013.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t it mean there’s still a bit of room this year (without fantasizing about a new spending paradigm)?
tobynotjason - February 17, 2012
Sorry, my cut-and-paste was supposed to start with: "From MLBTR:"
tobynotjason - February 17, 2012
Quick, someone call Oswalt.
vgsailor - February 17, 2012
what do you want me to call him?
white angus - February 17, 2012
stuck up ?
michaelbro8 - February 17, 2012
I'm thinking this
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
just gonna leave this here...
from “noted pirates hater” keith law
johnnycuff - February 17, 2012
Sadly, though...
…even with a sub-4 ERA for the Pirates, his W-L record will still be something like 7-13 due to an alarming lack of offense if Pedro doesn’t get it together, Tabata and Walker don’t improve any and Presley turns out to be Chris Duffy 2.0.
Bishop1973 - February 17, 2012
Well if Presley disappoints, I hear there’s some Marte kid waiting to take his spot.
gorillakilla34 - February 17, 2012 via mobile
whom is this Mar-tay you speak of?
white angus - February 17, 2012
He often goes by
Mc Fly.
Wizard of Woz - February 17, 2012
You should get an award
For closing the books on what Marte’s nickname will be.
BarryJT - February 17, 2012
not bad at all
white angus - February 17, 2012
Great deal
AJ wins 15 this year!
Brakeman8 - February 17, 2012
Cool beans. Even if the prospects turn out, they’re a ways away and there are plenty of other people in the pipeline ahead of them here. We still need some offense, though. Work the phones, NH!
Aphthakid - February 17, 2012
I can see it now
Burnett shoves a pie into Manny Ramirez’s face many times this year.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
Not that Manny would be with the Pirates, Burnett will just be hunting him down wherever he is.
Aphthakid - February 17, 2012
"I'm here to shove pies and kick ass, and I'm all out of pies."
“Oh, wait, I’ve got one right here.” [SHOVES]
JRoth95 - February 17, 2012
The Yankees are dumping salary onto the Pirates? I guess the cap on spending in the MLB draft really is bringing about economic parity to Major League Baseball.
Kidspud - February 17, 2012
I really wanted to know who the mystery team was.
Sigh…
BarryJT - February 17, 2012
I'm guessing
Tomateros de Culiacán of the Mexican League
gorillagogo - February 17, 2012
As always...
Hyundai Unicorns. They have a magic rainbow of money to spend but no one will take it. Sad, sad Unicorns.
Aphthakid - February 17, 2012
Mystery solved
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
I don't know WHY this isn't green yet.
I’m very disappointed.
cocktailsfor2 - February 18, 2012
According to a Buster Olney tweet...
the mystery team was the Phillies.
Thunder - February 17, 2012
Huh? That makes no sense at all.
Vlad - February 17, 2012
He said they’d have to have traded Blanton first.
This explains why everyone outside NYC was the Pirates were the most likely all along.
WHYG Zane Smith - February 17, 2012
it still makes no sense...
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
My thoughts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CuWQfMGjZF4
WVUColumbus - February 17, 2012
Never realized
that Mike (from hit sit-com “The Middle” and also janitor in “Scrubs”) has a cameo.
WVUColumbus - February 17, 2012
star turn
Don’t forget his appearance as the subway cop in the Fugitive
VanSlick - February 17, 2012 via mobile
Oh thank God!
Cole wasn’t include!! Don’t PANIC!
Seriously though, I love the idea of trading minor league relievers. NH has proven before that he is more than capable of putting together an effective bullpen from pieces that are readily available, so if we can use relievers to acquire talent, I’m all for it. I’m not suggesting we flip Justin Wilson and Bryan Morris for nothing, but you get the idea.
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
I was talking to a Yanks fan on FB.
He heard it was going to be Cole, Taillon and Alvarez for AJ Burnett.
IAPiratesFan - February 17, 2012
Haha, that cannot have been legit.
must have been collaborating with sweetleb’s sources
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
If he was sincere, I suggest you rob him for all of his money and tell him it’s “stupid tax”.
ryebr3ad - February 17, 2012
He was kidding.
I think that was pretty obvious.
IAPiratesFan - February 17, 2012
I am certain of nothing on the internet anymore, especially when a Pirate fan said that they heard the PTBNL in the Ludwig deal was Stetson Allie.
God, people are DUMB
ryebr3ad - February 18, 2012
From who
the cannabis?
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
tell taht guy I have a bridge for sale;
michaelbro8 - February 17, 2012
pirates would have to throw in a lot more $$$ to make that deal
gorillagogo - February 17, 2012
I came back
and read this again and I don’t believe you. There’s no way.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
This works
Cayonez and Moreno. Definition of meh.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
yep
i think there’s some upside there, though
and as pointed out earlier, we’ll find out whether Moreno’s lack of advancement was due to mishandling or his own limited abilities. Same with Cayones perhaps.
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Maybe
But if you’re 20 years old and aren’t producing in SS ball, maybe it’s not a mishandling…
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
i used mishandling wrongly
intended more to convey lack of proper developmental approaches in the case of Cayones. He was a high bonus signing, so they saw something there that they weren’t able to get to a point where he could handle a SS league. (Not that it precludes him simply not being good enough)
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Fair enough
I see what you’re saying. That could be, but at this point, it maybe too late to reverse that. Unless this turns into Jose Bautista all over again…
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
Cayones tore up the VSL if I recall
At one point I was pretty excited to see what he could do once he started in rookie ball and low A. Then he hit rookie ball and low A.
gorillagogo - February 17, 2012
One thing that happened with Cayones was that he didn’t mature physically the way the Pirates hoped. When they signed him he projected to play CF, but over a couple years he got a bit softer and his speed dropped to below avg., according to BA. Basically, by last spring he didn’t look very projectable any more. Just a hazard of signing 16-year-olds.
WTM - February 17, 2012
He actually 'tore' up
the GCL for half a year. Was hitting like .450 for a few months. Had a 9 hit double header or something like that. Problem was, his ISO was .060 or something.
Below WTM gets to the heart of why that GCL spurt was his shining moment.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
I actually thought we’d have to give up more than this, maybe somebody like ZVR or Dodson. Moreno and Cayones both have some tools to offer, but this was at the low end of the range of prospect costs that we could have expected. On top of that, NH didn’t have to hit the upper end of the dollar range people were projecting, which was about $14-15M. Very nice job.
WTM - February 17, 2012
Agreed
Worst case scenario he sucks alot and we gave up those two prospects.
Best case scenario he leads us to the playoffs
Middle case (and most likely IMO) he pitches decently to well and we flip him come July 31.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
Moreno
I know that he would have had to stay on the MLB roster, but you would think that the Yankees would have taken a flyer on Moreno during the Rule 5 draft if they had thought so highly of him.
BrianO' - February 17, 2012
This is a point no one seems to be talking about
Keep in mind that everyone had a chance to get Moreno for a negligible amount this winter (especially for the Yankees). And for a guy with his ability to miss bats, I feel like he’s someone who could hide in a bullpen all year.
glass0941 - February 18, 2012
actually worst case, Burnett sucks, Moreno replaces Mariano as the next ‘Mo’ for the next 15 years, and Cayonez becomes a masher with plus defense in LF
BurgherKing - February 18, 2012
personally, i still like Cayones to be something useful in the majors
C Shint - February 18, 2012
Great names, though
I’m a bit surprised that they’re both legit upside guys (as opposed to Calvin Anderson-like types whose ceiling is Brad Eldred), but yeah, even if they pan out, it’s a fine deal.
This does explain the drawn-out process. I’m sure NH was hoping to give up less.
JRoth95 - February 17, 2012
you can imagine the names exchanged in the process, eh?
white angus - February 17, 2012
Yes it does. Especially when you considered that names suggested by the Pirates made the Yankees FO go “Who?” and then call up scouts who had to activate their scout network to find people who’d heard of these guys much less seen! No wonder it took days!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Awesome.
The deal is finally done, and it’s a good deal at that. Hopefully, this means we can ship Correia to the moon or something. (And yes, I am aware that Nutting is probably too cheap for that, but still.)
wg1of5 - February 17, 2012
Korea?
’Cuz his name…nevermind.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
You say Korea, I say Correia...
Aphthakid - February 17, 2012
Ain’t far enough away.
wg1of5 - February 17, 2012
Well then...
I hope the Pirates know their minor leaguers better than the Yankees do, especially Cayones.
IAPiratesFan - February 17, 2012
Eh
As far as all outfielders Cayones is way down on the depth chart…
Marte
Bell
Grossman
Willy Garcia
Gorkys Hernandez
Harold Ramirez
Mel Rojas
Evan Chambers
Wesley Freeman
All of those guys, plus more, are ahead of Cayones.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
Could potentially argue to include Quincy Lattimore
You know it’s rough when…
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
The fact that we are considering Quincy Latimore
to be a better prospect than Cayones speaks volumes/says it all, etc.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
Bingo
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
I am loving how most Pirate fans have been saying this entire time leading up today that this would be a solid deal to help improve the buccos rotation this season. but NOW that it actually happened, im reading all over the place (probably the same people that favored it) that they are now upset at this acquisition of Burnett because they feel like this 13 million dollars is a total waste and that it will affect future contract extensions of Cutch and Walker….who are under team control until 2016 and 2017, respectively. or the usual “they shouldve spent that 13 million dollars on a better player!! they need to sign good players to get good!!”…even though we all know that playing for the pirates isnt an attraction for big name FA and that even when they give offers, players dont wanna take their money and obviously refuse to come here (ie: EJax and De La Rosa)
rinsana11 - February 17, 2012
I suspect you arent reading this on BD, or the more sensible sites around like PP. It’s a reminder of why the smarter fans hang around these places!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Ya that's
why I’m here. So y’all can get force the stupid out of me.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
Someone’s been hanging around sweetleb!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Sir
I don’t think there’s much hope for that to happen for either of us.
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
definitely not on here or PP. this is on places like espn and even facebook
rinsana11 - February 17, 2012
Meh and we'll see
I am generally wary of career minor relievers, and with Moreno’ s erratic behavior and that a guy with that kind of arm got passed over in the rule 5 draft, I am not worried about losing him.
Cayones will have to wait on. I felt like he still had some skills to develop. Probably just another Gorky at best, but wanted to give him a little more time.
Regardless, good deal NH. Onward and upward.
VanSlick - February 17, 2012 via mobile
Good move by NH
Haven’t been a huge fan of any of his moves this offseason but I like this one. AJ should give us 200 innings and saves us from seeing Kevin C start every 5 days which is a win in itself.
JCBucs - February 17, 2012
So in 2007 if someone tells you
Erik Bedard and AJ Burnett are in the Pirates rotation in 2012 you say?
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
"Oh hey there, World Series"
In 2012, probably something more like, “Oh hey there, slight to moderate improvement.”
Superstar25 - February 18, 2012
"the rebuild is over !" or "so we're punting in '12?"
patient pirate - February 17, 2012
Exit-cardo and Go Diego Go!
patient pirate - February 17, 2012
sorry my post placement was messed up due to lack of sleep waiting for this deal to go down
patient pirate - February 17, 2012
The reason for Moreno's suspension!
Kissing!
Sale the louwww!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
aw
As far as unprofessional conduct goes, that’s kind of sweet.
WHYG Zane Smith - February 17, 2012
maybe it was a dude,
and thats why they soured on him.
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
Nothing at all!
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
Image Fail
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
on pinstripe alley they are saying 14.9 million
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
Beer Temple
said $5 million this year and $8 million next. Mystery team kicking in $1.9 million?
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
Yeah, the Phillies have to pay $1.9 million. How do you like that, Philadelphia?
Charlie Wilmoth - February 17, 2012
this might explain it
Buster Olney says the Yanks have already paid Burnett $1.9M this year, because they pay year-round. So if he looked at how much the Yanks had left to pay him and figured the PIrates were picking up the rest, he might have added $1.9M to our tab.
WHYG Zane Smith - February 17, 2012
your good
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
he's front page, baby
white angus - February 18, 2012
I can’t find that confirmed anywhere.
Charlie Wilmoth - February 17, 2012
eh, i trust the Pitt reporters
they are good! unlike the NY hacks!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
its a post but by one of psa writers
Wow, $14.9M and two prospects? Cashman is amazing.
Contributing writer for Pinstripe Alley.
Follow me on Twitter @frankiecamp48
by Frank Campagnola on Feb 17, 2012 3:49 PM EST
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
Cripes
Even Yankee message boards cause salary inflation.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
Rec'd
WTM - February 17, 2012
here is the twitter link
https://twitter.com/#!/JimBowdenESPNxm/status/170597968020377600
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
take or 3
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
JIM BOWDEN
@JimBowdenESPNxm
Follow
Confirming AJ Burnett & $18.1 million dollars has been traded from NYY to PGH in exchange for Exicardo Cayones OF & Diego Moreno RHP pending
2:58 PM – 17 Feb 12 via web · Embed this Tweet
Reply Retweet Favorite
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
That appears to be accurate...
2 years left on contract worth $33M. The Yankees have already paid him $1.9M this year (evidently he gets paid 12 months a year instead of only during the season) to lower it to $31.1M – the $13M the Pirates will pay over the next 2 seasons = $18.1M.
Thunder - February 18, 2012
Imagine
on Valentine’s day you’ve already been paid $1.9 mil. Wow.
BostonBuc - February 18, 2012
Wish I had that problem.
glass0941 - February 18, 2012
I bet he will actually improve coming to the Pirates.
We gave up two crappy prospects and am paying him what Maholm could have earned with us. I think the combination of NL Lineups and the relatively weak NL central lineups, he could get his ERA back down and become a better pitcher.
dasox313 - February 17, 2012
Mr. Nutting?
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
Could be
I wouldn’t have expected him to be a White Sox fan, though.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
What is that supposed to mean?
I may just be taking this all the wrong way though.
dasox313 - February 17, 2012
Inside joke
thanks for the kind words dude. Hope you are right.
McCutchenIsTheTruth - February 17, 2012
If it's him
YOUR CHEAP!!!! SALE THE TEAM!!!!!!!!!!
glass0941 - February 17, 2012
Huh?
Excuse me, but I do not get what you mean by that.
dasox313 - February 17, 2012
you said "am paying"
which is the verb that you would use if you were personally paying him, like Bob Nutting (owner of the Pirates). The folks are just giving you some good-natured ribbing about it.
Trust me that it’s good-natured — if you want to see ill-natured ribbing, check out what’s happening to sweetleb (who has earned it).
WHYG Zane Smith - February 17, 2012
Ah
Ok, thanks. I tend to talk like that. Thanks for explaining.
dasox313 - February 17, 2012
Thanks for stopping by
And see what you can do about denying the Cubs a place to play while they work on Doublemint Field. I think U.S. Steel Yard in Gary, Ind., would be appropriate.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
I'll put in a good word for the Yard
I heard its nice this time of year.
dasox313 - February 18, 2012
what WHYGZS said
no offense (nor grammar-Nazism) intended!
BurgherKing - February 17, 2012
So NH traded someone the yankees could have had for free, and a former
16 year propsect who never grew? On top of that he backloaded the salary to a year where he has even greater payroll flexbilty? Somebody put one of those pods next to Pedro.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRVfGMjdGh8&feature=related
Joe9195 - February 17, 2012
a rule 5 draft is not quite free, the yankees would not likely have roster spots free nor the patience to keep him all year, but the point is still valid. While I’m not competely sure about the yankee’s roster situation, what is funny is that they likely will expose him in the rule 5 next year…and if they lose him will have all of one excardo for their troubles.
Yung-Han - February 18, 2012
take 2
karreemofwheat - February 17, 2012
As a Cardinal fan
I like this move for the Pirates. I think moving to Pittsburgh should help him with his biggest problem of giving up the long ball. I would keep an eye on his velocity though. It has been dropping every year. Curious what it will be in Spring Training
FlimtotheFlam - February 17, 2012
Not when they play 7 games in Wrigley, 9 at GAB, 7 at Minute Maid (at least this season). Not much different than playing in the AL East parks.
Thunder - February 18, 2012
geez Thunder
do you have anything optimistic to say about the Pirates?
Even Jake has some positive things to say about the Pirates sometimes.
BadAndy - February 18, 2012
Stating that Wrigley, GAB and Minute Maid
are just as favorable as Fenway, Rogers and Yankee Stadium for HRs isn’t a negative or a positive. And it has nothing to do with the Pirates as a team, just Burnett. Those EXPECTING a much more favorable HR rate for Burnett need to do it because they expect him to have better luck, or pitch better. If he pitches the same way he did last year, playing in the NL Central isn’t going to make a large difference.
A large difference between being pessimistic and realistic.
Thunder - February 18, 2012
Or because the avg. AL East team, excluding the Yankees, hit 188 HRs while the avg. NL Central team, excluding the Pirates, hit 155.
A large difference between being realistic and pessimistic.
WTM - February 19, 2012
Oh, and Fielder and Pujols are gone.
WTM - February 19, 2012
Yep...Fielder is gone.
OTOH…the Brewers did pick up ARam. Assuming he’s healthy, the numbers that he put up for the Cubs when healthy aren’t a large drop from what Fielder put up. A drop…but not a big one…like maybe 10-15 OPS points.
Thunder - February 19, 2012
And we have 6 games vs the Tigers this year.
Thunder - February 19, 2012
Prince – .981
Aram – .871
Of course, you have to consider the changes of subtracting McGehee and adding Gamel.
With Prince, you also forget about “small ball” and Roenicke is into that so you can probably subtract a little bit of team production.
ol Pete - February 19, 2012
ARam was already in the division.
WTM - February 19, 2012
There’s also the fact that the key difference between the two contexts is that Burnett will be pitching a full half his games in relatively pitcher-friendly PNC rather than homer-friendly Yankee Stadium. The way-smaller number of games he’ll have to pitch in Wrigley, Minute Maid and GAB don’t matter nearly as much. If Burnett pitches the same as he did last year, there should be a big difference in his home-run rate.
Charlie Wilmoth - February 19, 2012
Yankee Stadium has never been a large part of Burnett’s problem. The road…especially the AL East…has been a problem…and 3 of the parks in the NL Central are rather friendly to power hitters. I don’t expect a large change between Burnett’s Yankee Stadium numbers and his PNC numbers. And if he’s in that neighborhood, he’ll be better than the overall numbers the last 2 seasons. Again, it’s the road that will make the difference.
Thunder - February 19, 2012
Common misuse of splits.
The fact that Burnett pitched better at home doesn’t mean Yankee Stadium didn’t hurt him.
WTM - February 19, 2012
On the whole, I have to say that the argument that moving from the AL East to Comedy Central won’t help Burnett is . . . . . . . deranged.
WTM - February 19, 2012
Javier Vazquez approves of this statement
maguro - February 19, 2012 via mobile
Except that, y’know, the Astros play in Minute Maid and the Red Sox play in Fenway.
WTM - February 18, 2012
Pretty sure Toronto has kind of a long-ball oriented lineup in a...
y’know, kind-of long-ball oriented stadium, too. Hmmmm… Cubs in Wrigley (slightly below average HR factor last year, btw) or Jays in Rogers? Yankees in NY or Astros in Houston?
tobynotjason - February 18, 2012
Pitching at Wrigley and Minute Maid might not be an advantage
But facing the Cubs and Astros certainly is.
maguro - February 18, 2012 via mobile
+1
karreemofwheat - February 18, 2012
When the wind at Wrigley is blowing in, it is a pitchers park.
Joe9195 - February 18, 2012
Considering we don't play in Wrigley...
until the end of July…I wouldn’t expect 20 mph winds toward home plate. We also don’t play in Cincinnati until May, so the home run oriented parks, we won’t be seeing in cold weather.
Our road games in April are LA, SF, Arizona and Atlanta. Cold, wet weather is only going to be a problem for home games this season. Other than the usual San Francisco weather.
Thunder - February 18, 2012
Month doesn’t really matter. Hell the day doesn’t even matter. That shit changes at the drop of a hat.
cocktailsfor2 - February 19, 2012
Wrigley really isn’t a hitter’s park anymore. The modern mallparks dragged the baseline up to the point where it’s basically a neutral environment, or maybe even a slight pitcher’s park.
Vlad - February 19, 2012
2011 Ranking in Park Factors
Runs
AL East — 3, 4, 6, 12, 29 (Avg. 10.8)
NL Central — 7, 8, 10, 17, 23, 25 (Avg. 15)
HR
AL East — 4, 6, 8, 21, 22 (Avg. 12.2)
NL Central — 3, 7, 11, 14T, 24, 27 (Avg. 14.3)
Most importantly, of course:
Yankee Stadium — Runs 6th, HR 4th
PNC — Runs 17th, HR 24th
Wrigley ranked 23rd in runs and tied for 14 in HR.
And all of that is without getting into the massive differences in the hitters who call those parks home.
WTM - February 19, 2012
I absolutely love this deal
The Pirates taking on salary in what is essentially a salary dump from the Yankees? It really is a great storyline. With Bedard and Burnett, and a very weak NL Central, I think the Pirates have a much more realistic chance of winning the division in the ever-present “if everything goes right” scenario. While the Pirates may be a stronger team to compete in 2014-2016, the division is so weak right now I feel like this is as good a time to get some short-term pieces to try and compete as any.
It’s time for Spring Training, so I’m back. I am no warm weather fan, but I am not too active on these boards in the middle of NFL season.
Pghfan987 - February 17, 2012
I like the enthusiasm
But I would say St. Louis and Cincinnati, in particular, will still be and handful in the division, and maybe even Milwaukee for stretches.
Additionally, while adding Bedard and Burnett (Bedett? Burnard?) pretties up the rotation and the pen looks fairly solid, I really think the lineup seems destined to struggle. The unknown (Alvarez), the known (Barajas, Barmes & Jones) and the hope-we-know (Presley & Tabata) all need to produce consistently for the Pirates to make a run at 83+ wins, and then a division title. IMHO.
Jitterbug - February 17, 2012
we can compete right now if Bedard, Burnett stay healthy, Morton, Karstens repeat last season and Pedro steps up in a big way. That all happens, I think we have a chance
C Shint - February 17, 2012
I think it's a pretty fair trade for what both sides were trying to do.
From the Pirates perspective, they get probably a league average starter at a little below market value and avoid the mess of Kevin Correia and a Lincoln/Locke/Owens combination if/when Morton/Bedard miss time (not that I don’t think the Lincoln/Locke/Owens trio does not have some potential, but relying on them would be foolish) without giving up any top prospects.
From the Yankees perspective, they free up cash to sign a left handed DH while losing someone who only would compete for a 5th starter position and actually get some value in return as while Moreno and Cayones are probably both fringy top 30 propsects in my estimation, Moreno has the stuff to be a very competent high-leverage reliever and Cayones is still young and apparently toolsy enough to be interesting.
Scranton - February 18, 2012
I'd say you summed the trade up pretty well.
Midnight Moose - February 18, 2012
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