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Frank Coonelly's Comments On The Draft Pool

For whatever it's worth, here's an exchange Frank Coonelly, Vlad and I had in December regarding the draft pool. The news that the Pirates are only getting a pool of $6.6 million is catching me off guard a bit, and you'll probably see why when you read below.

Charlie: So how much is the draft pool?

Coonelly: How much is the draft pool? Ours, for next year, is roughly ... Depends on, well I think we'll get two, I know we'll get two supplemental choices if we don't sign Lee, so it'll be around 10 for us. The highest will be $11.7 million, I think ...

Charlie: 10.

Coonelly: 10.

Charlie: How does that work if the slot [pool value] for the eighth overall pick is $2.9 million and the first overall pick is $7.5 ...

Coonelly: $7.2, I believe.

Charlie: Okay. That's still a big difference, and the only way I can see you guys making that up is with the two comp picks, so how does that work?

Coonelly: Well. I'm counting on two comp picks.

Charlie: Okay. But that still shouldn't add up to $4.3 million, which is the difference between ... is that right? Does the math work?

Vlad: I would trust his math. He's the one that's seen it.

Coonelly: We're around 10. We're going to be around 10.

The Baseball America reporting that came out earlier today only includes one comp pick, since Derrek Lee hasn't signed yet, but obviously, there's no way to make up the difference between $6.6 million and $10 million with one comp pick. We'll see if the BA reporting is wrong, or if Coonelly was wrong. Jim Callis is normally really reliable, obviously.

UPDATE by Charlie: There's the possibility that Coonelly was talking about the entire draft budget. Since the effective limit for spending on each pick after the first 10 rounds is $100,000, and $100,000 x 30 = $3 million, he might have meant that the limit for spending on the entire draft was about $10 million. However, the last 30 rounds are not part of the pool, and he is clearly referring to draft pools elsewhere in his answer. Also, it would be extremely hard to spend that entire $3 million, since there are few players who would 1) require a bonus that large and 2) be tempted by a bonus that small. In the last four years, the Pirates have only given draft bonuses near $100,000 to a handful of players outside the first eight or nine rounds. Usually $100,000 isn't enough to prevent a good prospect from going to college, and yet it's more than you want to pay an organizational player or a college type who wants to hit the ground running.

Anyway, the big issue for me -- aside from the news that the Pirates' draft pool is that small -- is how the Pirates could have signed off on the CBA while being off by a third on one of the key issues surrounding it. I just sent emails to both Coonelly and Callis; hopefully I'll hear from them.

UPDATE by Charlie: Here's Jim Callis' response about what might explain the difference between his numbers and Coonelly's:

I think it's the difference between estimating and actually crunching the numbers. The Lee pick would be worth another $900,000. Perhaps he was thinking of 2013 forward, when there wouldn't be so many compensation picks (pushing the value of several of their picks down) and they'd have a competitive-balance lottery choice in many years (which could be worth more than $1 million).

The Pirates pick once in each round, including the sandwich round. Their No. 8 pick is worth $2.9 million, their No. 45 pick is worth $1,136,400 and it tails off from there.

0 recs  |  116 comments

Comments

Someone needs to talk to him again

I guess.

On one hand, Coonley would like have more information than BA. On the other hand, BA’s info is much more current.

I wonder if Coonnelly had actual figures in front of him at the time, or if he was just estimating what the thought it would be

If he was estimating

then he really should have qualified his comments a bit better. He made a pretty big rounding error there.

In the middle of January

there was a panel at Pitt with a few front office guys and talking with them they said that they had still not been sent the entire CBA by MLB and that they have only been fed pieces of it. I’m not really going to hold it against the front office that Selig is being an asshole.

Note to Frank

Do not attempt to perform public math again.

Of course...

it’s now 2.5 months after the CBA has been signed off on, and John Q Public still can’t even see what is in it. MLBPA site still has the old agreement online.

I see no indications that the numbers Callis presents are estimated. Usually, if he’s estimating, he says so. And those numbers seem to be pretty specific, going down to $100 increments.

Fuzzy Math

I’m not sure where FC came up with his math, but there is only one team (the Orioles) who own the same # of picks (10) that the Pirates do, yet have a higher pool. They have 263,400 more than the Pirates, but they have the higher draft slot. If the Pirates had better players that left and were signed as FA, they would have more picks and a bigger pool.

If I give FC the benefit of the doubt...

At 100k for all picks after the tenth round, if we signed all 40 picks to the max allowed we’d spend about 9.6M in the draft. A comp for Lee would put that at 10M.

I think its clear you, and he, are talking about the draft POOL and not a potential draft BUDGET, there is that wiggle room in the number.

That's the conclusion I come to too.

That occurred to me, but that’s ridiculous if that’s what he was doing — not only because I asked specifically about the draft pool (which he clearly heard, because he repeated the question back to me), but because it’s just about impossible to spend all that money in the late rounds. $100,000 won’t be much of a lure to serious high school talents who are college-bound, and most college players don’t need to be paid $100,000. The number of players the Pirates have drafted outside the first eight or nine rounds in the last few years who are near $100,000 is relatively small (off the top of my head, I can only think of Zac Fuesser, Joey Schoenfeld and Brandon Cumpton, although there are probably a few others).

He’s also pretty clearly referring to draft pools later in his answer — the $11.7 million is a reference to the Astros’ reported draft pool.

The number of players the Pirates have drafted outside the first eight or nine rounds in the last few years who are near $100,000 is relatively small (off the top of my head, I can only think of Zac Fuesser, Joey Schoenfeld and Brandon Cumpton, although there are probably a few others).

Here’s the full list, for the entire NH/FC era:

2011: Candon Myles (12th, $125k), Jordan Cooper (23rd, $100k)
2010: Casey Sadler (25th, $100k)
2009: Walker Gourley (13th, $150k), Zac Fuesser (34th, $125k)
2008: Wes Freeman (16th, $150k), Jarek Cunningham (18th, $100k)

Cumpton was a 9th rounder, and Schoenfeld was a 10th, so both would’ve been included in the rounds covered by the pool.

Here’s the full list, for the entire NH/FC era:

(Per BA’s records. It’s possible that they might have missed one or more, I suppose.)

Jarek Cunningham

is really the only guy here who stands out. Maybe Candon Myles can turn into Jordan Schafer.

Too early to say much about Cooper or Myles.

I had totally forgotten that Sadler existed, but he actually pitched very well for the Power last year. Fuesser did fairly well for them, too. I don’t think either will ever be a star, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see either/both make the majors.

I’m sure the new system was still be developed and the numbers weren’t finalized yet. Not a big deal. In fact, if FC thought the top draft pool would be $11.7, then at #8 overall, I wouldn’t see how the Pirates would come in at $10 million.

My understanding...

is that the pool was supposed to be calculated from the slot numbers used during the 2011 season. So they did know approximately what a 1st rounder in a specific position was going to be.

Callis tweets that he doesn't see DLee signing anywhere...

here

Didn't the Pirates offer him $10 MM in arbitration?
they didnt actually exchange numbers

but given that he made something like 8 or 9M last year that seems like a reasonable bet.

Must be nice to be able to walk away from that kind of money.
I wouldn't do it.

For $10M, I’d play 1B for the Pirates naked, with bedroom slippers on my hands, instead of a 1B man’s mitt. For $10M, I’d play 1B for the Pirates, then wax Bob Nutting’s car, after every game.

"...with bedroom slippers on my hands, instead of a 1B man’s mitt. "

that’d make it rather hard to complete the 6-4-3, wouldn’t it?

That's it?

Everyone else on this site would do way more than that for $10M.

Well, I didn't put a lot of thought into it.

I’m sure that if I spent a few minutes on it, I could conjure up some more outrageous things I’d do, for $10M.

uh

lets just wait until its official and then see how the pirates handle this come draft time. until then i still don’t understand everything with this new system and how it will ultimately effect us. can we just wait and see how it plays out?

Sounds like a good time for an impromptu Rumbunter Podcast with Huntington and Coonelly to discuss how the MLB is f’ing the small markets.

NH and FC won’t play ball on that particular topic.

Maybe, maybe not....

I’m pretty persuasive, you know….

.

But seriously, it’s hard to get them past the “political” answers on stuff like that, though.

If you recall, there was a time on the Rumbunter Podcast when we were talking with NH (episode 10, for those of you who might have missed it, it’s at about the 24 minute mark) that I asked him if after his baseball career he’d consider running for office, and he said (and fortunately, he was laughing about it):

“You know what, that’s probably the biggest insult you can give someone like myself … I do not want to be a politician – I hate it, I hate having to dodge questions, but it seems like every time I’m candid, I get my foot- I put my foot right square in my mouth and end up getting myself in trouble. … So, I apologize for the political answers, I really hate it – I do – but it’s , it’s.. (sighing) I guess it’s part of the job, it’s the part of the job that I really don’t enjoy, but it is part of the deal.”

Off-air, we were discussing that and some other things, and NH said to us [I’m paraphrasing here], “You know, there’s nothing I’d rather do than sit down and have a beer with you guys and tell you what I really think about some of this stuff.”

Off-air, we were discussing that and some other things, and NH said to us [I’m paraphrasing here], "You know, there’s nothing I’d rather do than sit down and have a beer with you guys and tell you what I really think about some of this stuff."

Haha, that’s awesome.

Hey Cocktails

I need to thank you by the way.

Thank you.

For.....?
Let me find it
Here we go

Link

Get yourself credentialed, or start a widely-read blog, and we’ll talk. ;-)
Ha!

You’re welcome.

And keep up the good work.

Thank you sir!
That said,

we’ve already got 3 guests booked for tonite’s taping.

Heh.

Seriously, though. Good work on your blog. Keep writing good stuff, and watch it grow.

Haha

I wasn’t even trying to finaggle a way onto the podcast. I just wanted to thank you for inspiring and fueling me to start this crappy thing.

Maybe one day it’ll look half decent.

Suggestion

make the links for menu items open in the same page. The current setup bugs me when I try to click on the home page it opens up in a new tab.

Ya

I’ve tried to fix that and haven’t figured out how. I haven’t really looked too deeply into, but since you mentioned I’ll focus on making sure I can.

I can't fix it :(
in the html code

there must be something that looks like “target=_blank”. You’ll have to remove that.

Haha

html code. You keed right? Like I have any idea how to figure that stuff out.

HEY

that worked. Thanks BK!

cool, no problem

since your site is blogspot, I figured you can access the HTML directly… once you do that, it’s just ctrl-F!

heyyy

now i wanna start a blog! Cuz, then, you know… Rumbunter podcast!

i was hoping for a sweet leb interview

a satire on satire.

Me first!
maybe a panel like bill mahre

1. burgherking
2. mccutchenisthetruth
3. yankees insider sweetleb

sort of a compare and contrast, between reality and insanity.

so you're saying

mccutchenisthetruth lies between reality and insanity (not saying which is which btw ;)… given his username, that makes some metasense :P

nope

on real time they only have 1 bad guy per show.

i went by alphabetical order.

i was just joking

not so much the order as the coincidence of saying something lies between reality and insanity and having a guy with his handle in the spot :D

I'm probably

insane. Kinda hard to tell personally ya know?

And you know

Cocktails.. Rumbunter did offer me a writing position.. Just saying :P

And you passed it up because.....?

Feel free to email me if you would rather not discuss it here.

I'm writing for

Seedlings to Stars instead. See! (my mom will be so proud!) They offered me either post.

I chose S2S cause I feel like I know how to write better about prospects than the nuances of the big league club like Jeff Karsten’s arsenal, what Pedro is doing in the offseason, or who needs to be cleared off the 40-man roster. That stuff isn’t as fascinating to me as Alen Hanson or Davydas Neverauskas.

Love Rumbunter (alot), but I felt like S2S was a better fit and I could keep Buried Treasure!

I’m probably insane

Probably a prerequisite for being a Pirates fan!

Hey, at $50 a pop, I'll be doing okay!

Because, you know, guests pay us to be on the show.

Isn’t that right, WTM?

whom do i make the check out to?
No paper trail, dude.

attn. postmaster,

general delivery;

cocktailsfor2

11 stops on the el, north of wrigley

chicago, il

  • not to be confused with joliet jake
ok you can have it before me

you owe me one :P

Hey -

get you own f%*king podcast! ;-)

I listened to my first one

the other day (yeah it’s taken this long to get a smartphone and I’m otherwise occupied at other times).
Your voice is higher than I thought it’d be.

It fluctuates,

depending on how much cussing I’m doing.

Heh.

We're buying him beer?

Great, I’ll be the DD.

so...

You’re gonna be wearing a wire eh?

Is it possible...

that we see teams taking flyers on players seen as signing problems, mostly HS players with strong college commits, in the last 30 rounds and giving them larger bonuses? Or is there something in the new CBA to prevent this?

yup

If you go over something like 100K past the tenth round, it comes out of your bonus pool for the first ten rounds. And a player with a strong college commitment is going to take more than 100K.

ok

Here’s how we get some talent. Top players do not declare and play in frontier league for large amounts of cash. The Pirates I then buy that players rights. Any chance that could work?

Top players do not declare and play in frontier league for large amounts of cash.

Players in indy leagues are still eligible for the draft, unless there was a previous draft for which they were eligible and during which they were not drafted. The third time Matt Harrington was picked, for example, it was out of the American Association.

I do think there might be an exploitable loophole that would involve the player renouncing his US citizenship, though that’s obviously very serious stuff, and not everyone would be up for it.

I do think there might be an exploitable loophole that would involve the player renouncing his US citizenship, though that’s obviously very serious stuff, and not everyone would be up for it.

You would still run into the INTL bonus pool restrictions though correct?

You would still run into the INTL bonus pool restrictions though correct?

Not necessarily. International bonus restrictions only apply to international amateurs. That’s why Cuban players are exempt, as are players from countries with which MLB has a transfer agreement (Japan, Korea, Mexico).

If a player ended up in a pro league in a country with no transfer agreement (Taiwan, Italy, Australia, the Netherlands, etc.), then I believe that player would be exempt from both the draft and the international bonus pool. Maybe. I need to do more research…

Oooo good point.

Would they even need to rescind citizenship? Could they just go play in Japan for one year similar to what Brandon Jennings did in going to Italy? (although he was then drafted)

That said, seems odd a player just hasn’t done that in general. Go over to Japan or wherever for two or three years and then come back as a free agent?

Would they even need to rescind citizenship?

Maybe, maybe not. I think a player might be better able to sustain a legal challenge if he were a citizen of a non-US country. Even without renouncing citizenship, it might make sense to pick a player with dual citizenship (Israel, Italy, and Greece all have fairly liberal requirements, under certain circumstances) for the test case.

That said, seems odd a player just hasn’t done that in general. Go over to Japan or wherever for two or three years and then come back as a free agent?

Well, you can’t do it with Japan, because they have a transfer agreement with MLB, and control their amateur signees’ rights for a set number of years just like MLB clubs do. Hence the existence of the posting system. Alfonso Soriano got out of a Japanese deal to sign as an “amateur” with a US club by exploiting the same “retirement” hole as Nomo, but that loophole got closed ages ago.

That’s why you need to pick a league with no transfer agreement.

It sounds like there’s basically no way a player can become inelligible short of not being a US citizen.

The Indy League strategy is going to be somewhat more tenable because teams are a lot less likely to take a flyer on a guy who is considered unsignable. In the early rounds you risk losing a big chunk of your pool and in the later rounds you’re just wasting the pick because you can’t offer enough to matter. So, there is more of a chance of someone slipping through completely undrafted.

I have my doubts about whether it would help the Pirates at all, though. Let’s say you have a HS player who won’t sign for slot but wants to go pro instead of heading to college — call him Al Stetsonly. Al goes to the indy leagues and becomes a free agent. But precisely because he’s a free agent, teams can really bid his price up. If John Henry decides that the Pirates can’t have any nice things and he’s going to drop a few million on these indy league talents, the Pirates have to outbid him.

So the only way for the Pirates to get something out of this is to pay more than the other teams think the players are worth. They might still be able to do it by committing a lot of their budget to amateur signings, but I think it’d yield a much lower bang for the buck than the overslot signings, where once you’ve drafted the player you only have to meet their own valuation.

maybe

If they sign ml deals it would deter big market teams close to luxury tax like it did with cespedes but at thesame time I would throw up if we threw that money at him

eh

Im sure most kids are too raw at that age to warrant ml deals

I know you said "most" and those are exceptions,

but Harper and Bundy would disagree with you.

They’re too raw to deserve them, but they’ll get ’em anyway.

Can't

sign drafted players to ML deals anymore. Part of the new CBA. I’m really interested in seeing if teams turn this into a college football/basketball recruiting atmosphere where they provide ‘other’ benefits under the table.

but could you sign a player to an ML deal out of indy ball?

Seems like you might want to. OTOH giving a 20-year-old an ML deal gives me the heebie-jeebies, and as I’ve said before I don’t see why players even want them if it means their development will be rushed.

I guess you could

assuming they aren’t drafted at one point so they aren’t draft eligible. Again, I don’t see that happening. I don’t see a player worth commanding a deal (ML or otherwise) on the open market being left undrafted so he could go to Indy ball and then skip the draft. A team will take a flyer on him in the 30th-40th rounds to prevent that or just to take a flyer and throw $100,000 at him.

Yes there are 10 less rounds now, but there are still plenty of rounds to where I don’t think that will happen.

Naw

a team like the Pirates or another small-market team will draft him just to prevent this in my opinion.

Just Wondering

I’m just wondering if you two guys work for the Pirates in some capacity.
It’s hard for me to imagine that a guy in Coonelly’s position of President is going to discuss such matters with fans.
I’m just curious because I haven’t seen much about this in the local media.
Maybe I missed it.

Just Wondering

I’m just wondering if you two guys work for the Pirates in some capacity.
It’s hard for me to imagine that a guy in Coonelly’s position of President is going to discuss such matters with fans.
I’m just curious because I haven’t seen much about this in the local media.
Maybe I missed it.

You missed it. (Twice.)

Two years in a row at PirateFest, the Pirates have been kind enough to do a meet-and-greet with people from some of the top Pirates-related blogs, including the opportunity to do a private Q&A with Huntington and Coonelly, as well as a few players (this year, it was Clint Barmes and Chris Resop, and last year, it was Paul Maholm). The conversation to which Charlie is alluding took place at this year’s session.

If you’d like to see the actual interview in question, Tom at Rum Bunter put up some video from it on his site here. I’m linking to a cache because their host is apparently down for maintenance right now – when it’s back up, the regular link will be here.

Thanks for your answer.
I was aware of the meet and greet, I just did not know that questions could get that deep with the President.
After the news of the past day or so, I guess anything can be expected from him.
Another black mark on some dark days for the Pittsburgh Pirates.

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